• sheppard@feddit.uk
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    1 year ago

    The Israeli-Palestinian conflict is much more nuanced. Both countries’ current heads of state are kinda like “all this land is my country’s, the other country should not exist.” It’s unclear who is right.

    The Russo-Ukranian conflict is clear. One leader is claiming the land of the other, the other just want it back. Ukraine’s government is not claiming half of Russia.

    • bdonvr@thelemmy.club
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      1 year ago

      “Unclear who is right”

      No it’s pretty clear, out with the colonizer government. How is this a question?

    • starman2112@sh.itjust.works
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      1 year ago

      Edit: removed implied support for Hamas. Both militaries should burn. Hope for a quick end to the conflict for the sake of the civilians affected.

      • Magrath@lemmy.ca
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        1 year ago

        At the end of the day who is Isreal and who Palestine. If no one who was alive when Palestine was around can anyone rightfully claim it the land belongs to “Palestine”. It’s like the ship Theseus or something. Maybe I’m just dumb as fuck.

        Just make the fuck up and work together instead of being greedy bigots.

        • Cyclohexane@lemmy.mlM
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          1 year ago

          can anyone rightfully claim it the land belongs to “Palestine”

          You should tell that to Israel, which is expelling Palestinians from this land every week for decades. It is not the Palestinians who are claiming the land exclusively to themselves and expelling others from it. It is Israel doing that. I find it crazy that you somehow argue this as if Palestine is doing that.

          • Anduin1357@lemmy.world
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            1 year ago

            Palestinians lost the wars. Multiple wars. At this point there really isn’t a point in contesting against Israel when they can integrate with Israel peacefully instead.

            • Cyclohexane@lemmy.mlM
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              1 year ago

              Israel is not offering “peaceful integration”. Have a look at Palestinians who already live outside of Gaza, in the rest of occupied Palestine. The only choices are leave, suffer or resist.

              • Anduin1357@lemmy.world
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                1 year ago

                Palestinians don’t offer peaceful integration either, since they like to resist so much as a group that Israelis don’t know who they can trust.

                • Cyclohexane@lemmy.mlM
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                  1 year ago

                  Your sentence doesn’t make sense. Moreover, the Palestinian stance of most groups has been integration and living together peacefully and happily. “Resisting” their expulsion and the murder against them does not contradict that.

    • reverendz@lemmygrad.ml
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      1 year ago

      It isn’t that nuanced. The colonized, subjugated population is rising up rather than laying down to continue getting slaughtered.

      Liberate Palestine.

    • pancake@lemmygrad.ml
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      1 year ago

      Palestine has attacked territory that was assigned to Palestine by the UN in 1947. The UN also makes it very clear that a country may lawfully recover occupied territory “by any means, including armed force”. UN laws are thus very clear: Ukraine and Palestine can recover territories by force. Now, that doesn’t mean you should support them in their struggle to do so, but if you don’t, it must be for some other reason (e.g., Israel taking over would constitute a huge strategic gain for the US, while Russia taking over would destabilize the world and thus benefit small or weakly aligned players).

      • sartalon@futurology.today
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        1 year ago

        Wait, what!? How would this be a “huge strategic gain for the U.S.”?

        You could argue that it’s a proxy conflict between the West and radicalized Muslim states. Sure. I would even listen to a discussion about rich elites using governments to keep areas destabilized in order to further their own fortunes.

        But saying that somehow the U.S. would gain a huge strategic advantage is reaching.

        What would the strategic value be? Is there oil there? Would they put a base there that somehow had more capabilities than facilities they already have in the area?

        This isn’t 5D chess. This is two cultures that refuse to get along, being supported openly, and behind closed doors by larger nations.

        Israel hates it’s neighboring countries for good reason. Those countries hate Israel for good reasons.

        The human rights violations are disgusting and I support the freeing of Palestine.

        But when you do shit like what the Hamas just did, you destroy any sort of moral high ground you may have had. Two wrongs don’t make a right, no matter what your culture is.

        You can’t divorce Hamas from Palestine either, like some commentors are trying to do.

        Tribalism at its worst.

    • Takapapatapaka@lemmy.world
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      1 year ago

      I get that there is lot more nuances than russo-ukrainian, but imo there is a lot more similarities than you seem to imply : both Russia and Israel claimed that the land belonged to them before, that they should get it back, and use violence to kill local people who tried to resist or move them. The only difference is that Israel did it with the help of western countries and partially according to their laws, so they get like an aura of legitimity, but the acts remains quite close.

      I do not like when people basically do not accept violent behavior but accepts them when they are allowed by some law or authority.

      (Also yes Hamas is doing bad things and should be held accountable in some way, just like Ukraine to my eyes. But still, for me it remains obvious who kills more, who steals more, who oppresses more)

      • rockerface 🇺🇦@lemm.ee
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        1 year ago

        As a Ukrainian, let’s sort out what we’re accountable for once we’re not getting genocided. We also have a lot of questions to our own government, but I would still prefer it to the Russian

    • alvvayson@lemmy.world
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      1 year ago

      That really is the problem. Both sides suck in this war.

      On the one side we have a colonial apartheid regime that tries to steal every inch of land while imprisoning the native population in ghettos and restricting their economic and human development and trampling their human rights.

      On the other side we have a desparate population seething with righteous rage at their oppression that has rejected every attempt at compromise and is only willing to stop once they have fully driven off every last invader off their land, but realistically they don’t have the power or international support to achieve that, and they also never owned every inch of the land, either. So. Their ambition is neither realistic nor righteous.

      While most Israelis are European colonists who could migrate to either Europe or America, not all of them are and it would not be fair to those whose ancestors lived in the region for hundreds of years to become refugees.

      So anyway. I think the EU, UK, USA and Arab league need to come up with a reasonable plan - in consultation with the Israelis and Palestinians - and just force Israel and the Palestinians to accept the most reasonable plan. Both groups are fully dependent on their benefactors, while their domestic politics prevent them from solving it without external pressure.

    • Cyclohexane@lemmy.mlM
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      1 year ago

      all this land is my country’s, the other country should not exist.

      One of those countries is an ethno-religious state that is exclusive of the other. Can you guess which one?

      If you are an ethno-religious exclusivist who says “your country shouldn’t exist only mine!” and I am a country that multi-religious, and say “actually my country should be the prevailing one, not your exclusivist one”, you gotta realize those two are massively different, unlike you portray.

      The Russo-Ukranian conflict is clear. One leader is claiming the land of the other

      Russia’s original pretext for the war is not about territorial gains. It was supposedly regarding Ukraine’s attack on Donetsk, Luhansk, and ethnic Russian populations in general (such as the Odessa massacre), what they also called “de-nazification” of the Ukrainian government, and Ukraine’s bid to join NATO. This is easily verifiable, but I can provide you a sources on this if you doubt me.

      I am not claiming what Russia is saying is true, but it is not what you make it seem to make your argument.

      • Trainguyrom@reddthat.com
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        1 year ago

        Russia’s original pretext for the war is not about territorial gains. It was supposedly regarding Ukraine’s attack on Donetsk, Luhansk, and ethnic Russian populations in general (such as the Odessa massacre), what they also called “de-nazification” of the Ukrainian government, and Ukraine’s bid to join NATO. This is easily verifiable, but I can provide you a sources on this if you doubt me.

        Is that the line this week? They’ve been moving the goalposts so rapidly they must be on wheels (and better maintained wheels than the Russian army)

        The Russian propagandista changed their lines so many times it’s blindingly obvious that there’s no greater good and it was supposed to be a land-grab just like when they invaded and annexed Crimea

      • 100_percent_a_bot@lemmy.world
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        1 year ago

        Russias pretext for the war is complete horseshit. They have been supporting the rebels in these breakaway republics that magically appeared just after Russia annexed Crimea in 2014. Their support went beyond the usual proxy war/hybrid warfare bs, as hundreds of russian armed service men were confirmed KIA in Donezk and Luhansk.

        Also there’s not a shred of evidence for the secret nazi government of Ukraine (led by a Jewish president) and Ukraines bid to join nato was 1. Years of not decades from its realization and 2. None of Russias business.

        • Socsa@sh.itjust.works
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          1 year ago

          Remember that time the donbass “rebels” shot a civilian aircraft out of the sky using Russian weapons? Which they had because Russia was not invading Ukraine?

        • Cyclohexane@lemmy.mlM
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          1 year ago

          Russias pretext for the war complete horseshit

          Why are you arguing with me about Russias pretext, as if I’m telling you I support them? I specifically said I don’t. Stop deflecting please, and argue my actual point.

          • 100_percent_a_bot@lemmy.world
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            1 year ago

            OK then please clarify what exactly you mean here:

            One of those countries is an ethno-religious state that is exclusive of the other. Can you guess which one?

            You can only be talking about Palestine here, right? There is limited Muslim representation in Israel and no jewish representation in Palestine.

            If you are an ethno-religious exclusivist who says “your country shouldn’t exist only mine!” and I am a country that multi-religious, and say “actually my country should be the prevailing one, not your exclusivist one”, you gotta realize those two are massively different, unlike you portray.

            Israel has continuously expanded its settlements on the west bank in the Gaza strip. They did so, citing security concerns, in reality there are probably more religious reasons for doing that. The goal with these settlements is to chip away on territories that belong to Palestine.

            Meanwhile I have no doubts that if Palestine had a button that would make all jews evaporate, they’d not hesitate to push it in an instant. Hamas is massively antisemitic and even the more moderate part of Palestine seems to condone the military push.

            This situation is massively more complex than the Russo Ukraine war and there is no obvious good guy you can point to. This seems to bother people and will make the political parts of lemmy pretty insufferable for the next couple of weeks.

            • Cyclohexane@lemmy.mlM
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              1 year ago

              You can only be talking about Palestine here, right? There is limited Muslim representation in Israel and no jewish representation in Palestine

              Israel is a Jewish theocracy by its own admission. Palestine has Muslims and Christians. Palestine was never ruled by a theocracy. The most popular groups have always been secular (example: PFLP). Even the Palestinian Authority is secular.

              Whatever “muslim” representation there is in Israel, it is as good as none and does not change that it is an exclusive theocracy. Literally there is no equivalent to their religious exclusivism in any Muslim-majority nation. It is only matched by militant groups like ISIS.

              Meanwhile I have no doubts that if Palestine had a button that would make all jews evaporate, they’d not hesitate to push it in an instant.

              Source? This is an extremely bad faith argument. “A is genocidal. B has never done so. But I’m sure B would if they could, so that means A is justified!”. Please read that again and tell me you don’t see how ridiculous it sounds.

              And you don’t have to hypothesize. Before Israel was created, and during the increase of Jewish migrations in the 19th century and early 20th, Arabs never enacted any genocide against the Jews or did what Israel does today. In fact, European Jews found it to be a safe haven in comparison to Europe.

              Hamas is massively antisemitic

              Hamas only garners support because it is the only group left putting up a fight. It was never popular before that. But because of that, it has many non-Hamas-ians joining its ranks, and many of them reiterate their support for living peacefully among Jews.

              And its important to point out that Hamas only climbed up to this position because of Israeli support more than a decade ago. This is Israel’s own admission. They did not want progressive groups leading the resistance, and propped up Hamas instead. I’d be happy to cite you Israeli officials saying this.

              even the more moderate part of Palestine seems to condone the military push

              That doesn’t mean they’re anti Semitic. The operation primarily targeted military installations, soldiers and officials. It is resistance against the Israeli state. So supporting this operation is being opposed to the Israeli state, not because they wish to evaporate all Jews. That’s ridiculous.

              This situation is massively more complex than the Russo Ukraine war and there is no obvious good guy you can point to.

              It is quite the opposite. Russia-Ukraine involves two States with crimes on their records, and I only side with Ukraine because Russia is the aggressor. But Ukraine is far from being a good guy. Israel-Palestine is an apartheid state against stateless people getting murdered and expelled from their lands, and their best fight is minor incursions on the border. It is very much a one-sided fight.

              • 100_percent_a_bot@lemmy.world
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                1 year ago

                Israel is a Jewish theocracy by its own admission. Palestine has Muslims and Christians. Palestine was never ruled by a theocracy. The most popular groups have always been secular (example: PFLP). Even the Palestinian Authority is secular.

                https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Demographics_of_the_State_of_Palestine West Bank Muslim 80–85% (predominantly Sunni) Jewish 12–14% Christian 1.0–2.5%, (mainly Greek Orthodox)[8]

                Gaza Strip Sunni Muslim 98–99%, Arab Christians 0.2% (2,000 to 3,000 est.), other, unaffiliated, unspecified <1.0% (2012 est.).

                At least bother looking some of this stuff up…

                https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Popular_Front_for_the_Liberation_of_Palestine The PFLP has generally taken a hard line on Palestinian national aspirations, opposing the more moderate stance of Fatah. It does not recognise the State of Israel, it opposes negotiations with the Israeli government, and favours a one-state solution to the Israeli–Palestinian conflict. […] The PFLP has been designated a terrorist organisation by the United States,[10] Japan,[11] Canada,[12] Australia[13] and the European Union.[14]

                These guys seem like complete nutcases, secular or not. Also they are by no means politically popular, as opposed to Hamas and Fatah.

                Source? This is an extremely bad faith argument. “A is genocidal. B has never done so. But I’m sure B would if they could, so that means A is justified!”. Please read that again and tell me you don’t see how ridiculous it sounds.

                It’s not bad faith at all, they literally have eradicating Israel as their mission goal. And that’s not the first time an arab nation tries something like that, Iraq wanted to kill everyone in Israel with nerve gas in the 90s, that’s why the first golf war happened. Also, Israels genocide is a cultural genocide (which is pretty bad) and I wish they didn’t do what they are doing. Yet I dare you to look up any imagery from the last 72 hours and tell me that you prefer the approach that Palestine is taking in Gaza.

                I’m not going to bother to continue, go outside and leave lemmygrad for a while comrade. Good night.

                • Cyclohexane@lemmy.mlM
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                  1 year ago

                  At least bother looking some of this stuff up…

                  I’m not sure which part of those statistics you think contradicts what I said. Can you please quote which part of what I said contradicts it? Your statistics confirm what I said. Go back and read what I said.

                  These guys seem like complete nutcases, secular or not.

                  Is this an argument? I am going to ignore it because I find no substance here, but if there’s something I’m missing, let me know.

                  Also they are by no means politically popular, as opposed to Hamas and Fatah.

                  They were very popular before Hamas became the only group left fighting. Check out the PLO, of which they were a part of. Many of the prominent Palestinian figures were part of PFLP as well.

                  It’s not bad faith at all, they literally have eradicating Israel as their mission goal.

                  I literally just explained to you why it’s not. Feel free to argue my points directly, rather than restate the same statement I already disproved.

                  Iraq wanted to kill everyone in Israel with nerve gas in the 90s, that’s why the first golf war happened

                  And the second gulf war happened because of their WMDs. We all know how the state department narrative was correct without any issues at all, right? Right?

                  Yet I dare you to look up any imagery from the last 72 hours and tell me that you prefer the approach that Palestine is taking in Gaza.

                  Do you want to see the Palestinian child that was burned alive by Israeli fire? I can provide you a link.

                  I’m not going to bother to continue

                  That’s good. I prefer if you don’t. It’s not a good look. Please don’t spread misinformation elsewhere either.

    • Ejh3k@lemmy.world
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      1 year ago

      I feel like the people should have some say in who they want governing them.

    • BobGnarley@lemm.ee
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      Its unlcear who is right? Tell me, who lived there first before the US swung its dick around and displaced all of them?

  • hoshikarakitaridia@sh.itjust.works
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    1 year ago

    Idk if this is a hot take, but imo the war in Ukraine is pretty clear city while the Palestinian and Israeli conflict his an infinite list of wrinkles and nuances.

    It’s far less controversial to say the former is Russia’s fault than it is to say the latter is either Palestine’s or Israel’s fault.

    • Ineocla@lemmy.ml
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      1 year ago

      Yeah mostly because isreal/ Palestine conflict is much older then russia/Ukraine so a lot of things happened. But at it’s very core they both started because of the same claim : russia claimed used to own Ukraine so they want it back. The jews used to own Palestine so they want it back. So if you support Ukraine and isreal you’re just a hypocrite

      • azertyfun@sh.itjust.works
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        1 year ago

        I haven’t seen anyone here “support Israel”. Almost everyone agrees that the Israeli State is not free of guilt, far from it.

        What people really disagree over is whether that alone makes Palestine right (nuanced) and whether it justifies Hamas’ actions (unhinged but unfortunately semi-common take on here).

      • ZapBeebz_@lemmy.world
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        1 year ago

        I mean, if you go further back than 1947/1948, didn’t the Palestinians used to own Israel? Or do we want to go even further back, to about 1200 BCE?

    • Black AOC@lemmygrad.ml
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      1 year ago

      What nuance is there be had about this? Israel is a settler-colonial apartheid state that deserves what should’ve happened to America when those settlers were doing it. That’s like saying “the civil rights conflict has an infinite list of wrinkles and nuances”; in that it’s objectively wrong.

    • jatone@lemmy.dbzer0.com
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      28 days ago

      No its not that complicated. Israel are straight up shit stains generally speaking. Have been since they immigrated to Jerusalem and then ran a coup with western support. Imagine if Russians showed up in your backyard one day took over your house and then started killing your neighbors. Meanwhile china sitting there going ‘looks good to me guys!’

      Swap out relative names with jews and usa.

    • bigFab@lemmy.world
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      1 year ago

      Palestinian conflict is very simple: an army vs civilians. Only gonna end when all the latter are dead.

      Should we ever try to sanction that army? Never! Should we try sanctioning US for killing million iraqis who had not a WMD? No! Should we sanction Nato for bombing the wealthiest african estate libya to it’s ruin? Ah wait, WE are Nato. Can’t shoot own ankle.

      • mindbleach@sh.itjust.works
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        1 year ago

        Seems like both armies versus civilians.

        There’s not many other conflicts where I can remark “two war crimes don’t make a right” damn near every time.

        • Cyclohexane@lemmy.mlM
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          Hamas is a militia. They don’t have an airforce and whatever else is required to be a military.

          I’d urge you to compare the casualties caused by each of the “armies”. Hamas is not even a fraction of the concern that Israel is.

          • Kusimulkku@lemm.ee
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            It’s so much better that it’s a militia shooting at civilians instead of military

            • Cyclohexane@lemmy.mlM
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              1 year ago

              Please do not put words in my mouth that I did not say, I will not entertain that. I am happy to respond to any arguments you make or answer any questions otherwise.

    • Everythingispenguins@lemmy.world
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      1 year ago

      Why? Because the west supports the occupied in one and the occupier in the other? Don’t forget the west expected Ukraine to be an occupied state with a gorilla insurgency within a few weeks at the start of the conflict.

      Edit: because I am getting the expected hate. The Palestinians didn’t start out as Hamas. The extremism of Hamas was born out of the lack of action from former moderates. People will always become more extreme when they are met with a lack of action. That goes for the left and the right.

      So ask yourself if someone came to your house and told you to leave how angry would you be? If you don’t understand this look up the actions of the Israeli settlements.

      • TheBlue22@lemmy.blahaj.zone
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        1 year ago

        Because Ukraine is not committing brutal crimes, not lobbing rockets randomly, hoping to kill anyone, civilian or not. Not hoping to eradicate their enemy (that is the stated goal of Hamas). Ukraine government is not in power because of violence, but because they were voted in. Hamas is in power only because they have weapons and other palestinians don’t (given to them by other extremist Muslims, who want to see Jews die).

        So let me say it again, this conflict is not fucking comparable.

        • drathvedro@lemm.ee
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          2 months ago

          Ukraine is not committing brutal crimes, not lobbing rockets randomly, hoping to kill anyone, civilian or not

          Check your sources bias. Control phrase is “cluster munitions, Donetsk”. Russia is faaaar from being free of guilt, but, while they have capability to do this to ALL Ukrainian cities, I don’t see any footage of landmines all over Kiyv and Lviv. Another check is to listen to chants(e.g. москаляку на гіляку, смерть русні, etc) of each side. This effectively flips your argument upside down.

          Definitely not comparable, though, at least that we can agree.

          • TheBlue22@lemmy.blahaj.zone
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            1 year ago

            I am not pro Israel. You are just assuming that for no fuckig reason.

            Israel is committing what could be easily called genocide in Gaza. Moving settlers in, pushing palestinians away from their homes, killing their kids, their fathers. Doing who knows what else.

            I am against Zionist Israel and against Hamas.

            I am for a state for both Jews and Palestinians.

            You can have that position.

            Unlike the Ukranian conflict, both of the fighting sides are in the wrong. There should be no fighting to begin with. Only innocents suffer.

            • Album@lemmy.ca
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              1 year ago

              Yup don’t let them gaslight you buddy. This is how they do it.

            • Everythingispenguins@lemmy.world
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              1 year ago

              Well then just ask yourself is a meme about the conflicts themselves or about the west’s condemnation of one powers imperialism while supporting the imperialism of another?

              • TheBlue22@lemmy.blahaj.zone
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                1 year ago

                Did I make the meme? Am I the west or something? For all you know, I could not even be in the global west.

                Not once have I supported the imperialism, I called what’s Israel is doing a genocide for crying out loud.

                Get a fucking reality check buddy.

                • Everythingispenguins@lemmy.world
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                  Why are you so angry? I am not or ever attacking you. I never said you made the meme or where you live. Sorry for presenting you with an opinion that differs from yours.

              • Phrodo_00@lemmy.world
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                1 year ago

                I know what you mean and I also find western support of Israel appalling, but the meme is literally about the lack of support to Hamas, which makes sense given how they also like to randomly kill civilians.

              • BustinJiber@lemmy.world
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                The meme has total of four words. How are you arriving at any conclusion on what the meme is about? It’s not even proper spelling according to Google translate.

  • Zoldyck@lemmy.world
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    1 year ago

    I’ve seen so many stupid takes today, and this is one of them. The conflicts aren’t similar!

  • Cleverdawny@lemm.ee
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    1 year ago

    Launching rockets at civilians isn’t glorious whether you’re Russian or Palestinian.