They are both awful, yes, but one side is distinctly worse than the other
The problem is the less awful side’s awfulness is what lead to the growth of the scary-aweful side.
Pretty sure it’s the fault of the scary awful side for being scary and awful.
Removed by mod
seulement si tu es en retard
For those curious what they mean by this
Wow, what a fun cool way to call someone a slur without having the cajones to type it out plain.
Yeah, a slow decline of the US empire is preferable for the third world, China, and Russia than to have to deal with Trump’s weird international politics. With Joe you get a predictable further collapse of US power.
What a weird and terrible take. Kudos for saying something so stupid that I’ve never heard it before.
It’s not a perfect take, but I’ve seen so many takes insanely worse than this one that I am genuinely unsure what evoked such a strong reaction to it. (Particularly since you provided no explanation.)
Most USians don’t like being reminded that the empire they live in and have internalized belonging to is in terminal decline, and the options are a drawn out slow collapse and a “really flinging shit around” collapse
I didn’t say it was the worst take. I said it was the dumbest.
If you want to be pedantic, I also didn’t say it was the worst take, and you didn’t actually say it was the dumbest
so many takes insanely worse
what does this imply? almost as if you were saying its not the worst take?
Well that plus my last comment where I straight up said “I didn’t say it was the worst take”. I feel like you’ve gotten totally confused
Sorry, do you prefer the US to collapse in, idk, a flurry of proxy wars with the potential for the use of nuclear weapons? I much prefer the slow decline with limited proxy wars.
But having to vote for 100% hitler or 99% hitler means the current form of our electoral system should be dismantled (at the very least) no?
Joe Biden is a far fucking cry from 99% Hitler. Come back to reality, we need you here.
Do we really need them here though? Do we even want them here?
Yeah… actually. I know, craziness. But its true. Everyone drinks from the wrong cup of kool aid at the party eventually. We need to have empathy and sympathy for those led astray.
That was answering the first question, anyway. For the second, id say a resound, “fuck no!” but that unfortunately doesnt negate the answer to the first question :(
The Palestinians would liken him at least to the Emperor of Japan in WWII. Not quite Hitler levels but still supporting the guy
hitler could never imagine having the power of the presidency under pax americana, but he would have loved to translate the “racial jungle” speech. the supreme irony of biden’s dog literally attacking federal law enforcement while people are in prison for the same thing is palpable. kids in cages, building a border wall, and supplying arms to the middle east to prop up an ethnostate. look… how much hitler are you willing to tolerate?
Gaza only has 2 million people so Biden is just 33% Hitler.
Joe Biden, who is the President of a country that has been trying to negotiate a cease fire, and is sending aid to Gaza is responsible for the actions of a completely separate and sovereign nation?
1
I didn’t realize this until a sticker on a gas pump educated me. Stay woke friends
“Hey calm down do a ceasefire”
“No. May I please have more ordnance so I can keep doing my genocide?”
“Fine”
The one secretly sending israel weapons to commit Genocide with, and the only reason israel is able to continue their Genocide?
The Joe Biden blocking ceasefire resolutions at the UN?
Genocide Joe?
Yeah that one.
To your point, 33% Hitler is still better than 99% Hitler. Trump will bring this world into World War 3 by destabilizing Europe.
I forgot, which two countries just vetoed a US resolution for a ceasefire in Gaza linked to a hostage deal?
Maybe it was a bullshit resolution. Time will tell as analysts review its text.
I forget, which country gives Israel the tools it needs to kill hundreds of thousands of children and maintain an apartheid state?
1
Israel wouldn’t be able to exist without the sponsorship of the US, that’s where it gets most of its shit from. Also wow, almost all those countries are subordinates to the US. How coincidental.
One of those countries would definitely be the US.
None because what you are talking about doesn’t exist. There was no ceasefire resolution only an American endorsement for israel to use starvation as a weapon of war.
https://twitter.com/CraigMokhiber/status/1770933406806782071
Can you direct link a screenshot as I have Twitter blocked.
Here is the text of the tweet and the text of the tweet quoted in it:
A draft that does not demand an immediate ceasefire, but instead suggests one might be negotiated if certain conditions are met, and that genocidal attacks can otherwise continue, is not a ceasefire resolution. It is a ransom note.
It quotes the following by Al Jazeera English:
The US has drafted a new UN Security Council resolution that appears to support a ceasefire in Gaza, after blocking several other attempts at achieving a truce. Al Jazeera’s @baysontheroad looks at what the new US document says.
The quoted aje tweet is in reference to this video and the video is embedded in the tweet.
E: what do you do when you don’t have someone around to copy and paste shit from twitter? It seems absurd to block twitter but not have any way of accessing information that’s distributed on that website…
Twitter and screenshots of Twitter are not credible sources from which to form your opinions.
He’s a far cry from it for certain, but he shares a considerable amount of responsibility for what is occurring in Gaza that a lot of people feel uncomfortable with that.
I’m sure some people have already forgotten because China and Russia recently vetoed the last conflict resolution proposed in the U.N. but don’t let that stop you from remembering that our U.N. ambassador, appointed by the President who can revoke that appointment, issued multiple vetoes against multiple Gaza conflict resolution proposals previously.
Every president since Eisenhower shares responsibility for what is happening in Gaza, but that doesn’t mean we vote for the end of democracy in the US.
Biden calls for ceasefire while still supplying Israel = bad
Trump says Israel would finish the job under his administration = magnitudes worse, the fucker is a few syllables away from literally saying final solution
It’s not an accident that people suddenly care so much about US foreign policy when it’s convenient to bash Biden before an election. It’s a very concerted propaganda effort on social media that you’re either intentionally or unintentionally a part of.
Before the last election Trump tried to extort Ukraine by withholding military aid unless Ukraine helped investigate his political opponent, Biden.
I don’t agree with what’s happening in Israel/Palestine either, but I’m more concerned at how often it’s being used as this “trump card” to lower Biden to Trump’s level. It’s still not remotely close.
I really dislike how this always comes down to whataboutism.
I already consider Biden to be the lesser of the two evils here. That doesn’t mean I have to look away from his actions though, nor does it mean I have to support them.
You can have genocide in Gaza, or you can have genocide in Gaza and (“stepping-stone”) Ukraine. Its an unfortunate choice, but an important one nonetheless. If im harping on a moot point to you bc you already know this, rest assured i say this for all other readers as well. Your votes down ballot are also extremely valuable. This primary there was a referendum in my county that I was in favor of that passed by less than 100 votes.
The Gaza example was already whataboutism. I only bring up the Trump example to emphasize that we already have historical evidence that he won’t handle Ukraine or Gaza any better than Biden has. He only uses those situations to benefit himself.
I agree that being the lesser of two evils doesn’t absolve Biden’s part in it, but I hope you reconsider supporting him. As frustrating as it is that neither is perfect, it doesn’t help anyone to allow an even worse candidate to win in protest.
How was it whataboutism? I didn’t see anyone comparing him to Trump when I was replying. Hitler is absolutely not the any kind of standard that we should be comparing most politicians to hopefully. I’m also painfully aware that Trump is far worse in regards to foreign policy. I can imagine him offering further support to Israel even.
Look. I’ve already resolved to vote for Biden. There really isn’t much choice, but that doesn’t mean I have to ignore what he’s responsible for. Nor should history forget it either. If that somehow hinders his campaign, then so be it. Anyone who votes for Biden without these considerations is an accessory to the genocide though.
I don’t agree with what’s happening in Israel/Palestine either, but I’m more concerned at how often it’s being used as this “trump card” to lower Biden to Trump’s level. It’s still not remotely close.
(Holds up mirror)
There probably isn’t a single politician that I fully agree with.
There are different levels of disagreement and what I’m pointing out is people trying to use Gaza as a way to fully discredit Biden as a candidate because they have no other scandals to use against him.
You’re more concerned with how this will affect Biden than the actual genocide itself? That’s what I’m pointing out you saying in your comment.
yea but unless you think you can convince half the population to chop every billionaire’s head off we’ll just have to deal with it until we die of climate change
That is essentially the goal, i do think that is possible, and i am attempting to do that.
Godspeed
o7
Same
I wholeheartedly support your efforts.
Except it’s not.
Here in Australia we have preferential voting which is much better, but Biden and Trump are not the same.
Honestly, this is just the current strategy that right wingers seem to have switched to
Trump is a total psychopath who only cares about himself. He’s a criminal. The fact they’re trying hard to indict Biden, have for months but have found nothing should be a strong indicator he’s not (his son might be, but that has nothing to do with Biden, since unlike Trump’s kids, he wasn’t part of government).
Trump made it clear he would cause a insurrection months before it happened, and now he’s backed into a corner, what do you think will happen if he becomes president? He’s made it clear that he will act like a dictator
Seriously, if you guys vote Trump, it will f*** everyone. They’re not the same
I am not voting for trump lmao
In this context, ‘you guys’ refers to USA as a whole.
It is important for the world that the USA doesn’t elect a deranged dictator. So I hope you, as an individual, will vote for the better candidate.
Hunter did nothing worse than what the children of most politicians have done. Hell, Joe Manchin’s daughter is the reason epipens cost $500 each. Why isn’t she being investigated?
Because the charges are bullshit and Manchin votes with republicans.
Yeah dude, let me just dismantle America rn. In the meantime, fuck anyone on the Republican shit list. They should of focused on dismantling america rather than transing their genders or whatever. Don’t worry, after this revolution I’m gonna do they totally will be accepted and not targeted. But until then, doing minor actions that in no way hinder the progress towards dismantling america but do make the life’s of queer folk maybe less concentration campy is pointless because thats only 1% less Hitler to me, and why would I care about that? A worthy sacrifice. I mean if I took the day to go vote, my whole socialist output, organizing and networking collapses! They are a sacrifice that I am willing to make. Thank you for opening my eyes.
If Joe Biden wants me to vote for him, maybe he should use his executive powers to help my trans comrades facing persecution in red states
Liberals act like democrats are the only thing standing between us and Republicans, and that if Republicans win it’ll be the end of the world, so why aren’t they out there standing between? Why aren’t they willing to actually use force against the fascists?
If democrats think Trump is literally Hitler, the jackass obviously stole nuclear secrets, put him on trial and execute him for treason when he is found guilty.
But the democrats obviously won’t do this. Because they’re not on your side. They’re the good cop to the republican bad cop.
I think a lot of the blue no matter who types are following the dem line. You can’t attack Biden, sure. But the point they argue is always pushing ones mind towards the two party system. They don’t want people to even start thinking about talking about 3rd party. Cuz the Democrat’s (the party, not the voters) only platform is being better than Republicans and voting for a third party would ruin their whole thing.
It’s working too. I had forgotten there even was a green party lol and they’ve been around since before i could vote.
I dont even think it is about 3rd party stuff, I think it is about
“The facade of democracy gives us legitimacy, come on folks just participate in our democracy! Don’t think about how the system could be otherwise changed!”
Dawg have you met communists??? A large portion of us are queer, i’m queer. Are you suggesting that i should vote for genocide Joe out of fear of being persecuted? I can accomplish a lot through literally every political avenue other than voting
And what does voting do to hinder those things? We both communists but you act like if you vote everything you else do doesn’t matter. You act like if you dare vote in favor of any kind of harm reduction that you somehow ain’t a communist or you somehow are contributing. That’s not how that works. One of these two options will happen. The least you can do is take half a second to pick the one that will kill less people in the meantime while we keep working.
If your complaint is that “I don’t wanna contribute to the system” then the fuck are you doing here? Go to the woods and punch trees like the libertarians. You live and participate in capitalism weather you like it or not, and in the meantime you play games, watch movies and pay rent. You already prop up genocide Joe with your taxes I’m sure you pay. Drawing the line at voting is just silly
I won’t take a second to vote for him in part because it makes me stomach churn but also because without the threat of losing voters democrats literally have no incentive to impliment leftist policies. As a communist i’d expect you to be aware of that? I’m not a reformist and I don’t believe that socialism can be voted into existence but I definitely see how voting blue no matter who is incredibly short sighted.
Why should our “left” political party do anything that benefits the proletariat if they will still be voted into office if they don’t. Ultimately the democratic party is a bourgeoisie organization that serves its own interests which directly conflict with the interests of the prole. They will not offer us the slightest concession if they do not stand to lose something by not doing so.
Because the other option is more people suffer and I am not an accelerationist willing to hold my comrades lives hostage to prove a point to liberals. There are other means and methods. We can’t vote socialism in but that doesn’t mean we ignore it. It serves another purpose if not the one you want it to.
It seems pretty clear that queer people would be persecuted a hell of a lot more under Trump than Biden.
Woman here.
I lost my reproductive rights under Biden and a democratic house and senate. They did nothing to save Roe other than howl at the moon and write strongly worded letters.
Fuck both parties. Fuck electorial politics. We COULD elect a green party president but people like you swallow the party line and spend your time yelling at us to vote for your shit candidates who don’t want to work for us instead of actually working to put people in power who want to protect AND expand rights.
I’ve been in this game a long ass time. The two party system will lead us to fascism eventually. The only way to win is to refuse to play their game.
Roe getting gutted was the result of conservative judges that got appointed to the supreme court and the states that have taken further steps to restrict are republican run states. The majority that the Dems had was very slim not enough to get a lot passed especially when the “majority” included “moderates” like Manchin and Sinema.
I agree the Dems and libs suck. If they werent so smugly sure that clinton would win 2016 they would have not played politics and forced in their supreme court pick and we would have less of a minority.
Roe getting gutted is the result of a decades long plan by the republican party and letting them them win a majority again will only make things worse.
And yet Biden refused to stack the court when he had the power too. And his party refused to codify roe into law since the supreme court decided the case in the 70’s. Obama even ran on codification in his first campaign and started out with a super majority.
It’s the fault of republican assholery and democratic lazyness.
people like you
I’m not even American. I don’t think I was “shouting” or “pushing” anything. Was just commenting my opinion, for as little as that’s worth.
maybe federally. Maybe. They definitely wouldn’t do anything to stop red states from implementing hurtful anti trans laws.
That is simply a possibility however. But we are in the now, with a Democrat controlling the executive branch. what are Democrats doing with their executive power to stop Republicans in red states from doing whatever they want?
If youre having a hard time coming up with anything, don’t worry, so are we.
Is Biden doing anything now? Trans people are hiring now. How can you tell them “well it won’t be better, but it could be way worse” and feel good about what that means to them?
Because that’s fucking reality right now. We are living in a hellscape and I’d like to at the very least slow down the fucking. 4 years later is 4 more years to do something. Even if it doesn’t fix the problem, it’s at least slower, less severe. And not voting isn’t going to change that. It does nothing. It makes no statement, it makes no progress. You feel better not voting for Joe? Cool, so happy for you. Meanwhile Trump wins and someone’s life gets worse than it would have. It’s a shitty choice but that’s the reality. So unless you wanna pick up a gun and start taking shots at the expense of your own life, take the 5 seconds to do the smallest act of kindness you have with this impossible choice
Even if it doesn’t fix the problem, it’s at least slower, less severe. And not voting isn’t going to change that. It does nothing. It makes no statement, it makes no progress. You feel better not voting for Joe? Cool, so happy for you.
Ok, first, it is only less severe than something in our heads. Dems aren’t slowing anything. Second: yo, what is this? Who said i wasn’t voting? What’s this attitude youre sending?
If I’ve done something to raise your ire im prepared to apologize, but if not maybe think about how you present yourself
Who are you going to vote for when 2028 is Mitt Romney (D) versus Marjorie Taylor Green ®? Because that’s the path lesser-evilism will lead us too.
It seems pretty clear that queer people would be persecuted a hell of a lot more under Trump than Biden.
from what i can tell, it’s getting wors, not better, in the last 5 years. i have no reason to believe it would get better with either of them.
Do you actually care about queer people? Because it is obvious that the democrats as a national party will do nothing to protect us, let alone build bulwarks against the next time Republicans take power nationally.
“Vote to get sent to a camp four years later” is what I hear the democrats trying to sell. Sorry but that isn’t a very compelling sales pitch, because you’re out here admitting “we are going to kill you”
Backing up your point. Biden just agreed to ban the flying of pride flags at international embassays in order to get a budget passed. Democrats will happily sell out their voters once in office in the effort to be “bipartisan”. https://www.forbes.com/sites/antoniopequenoiv/2024/03/21/white-house-agrees-to-ban-pride-flags-at-us-embassies-in-spending-bill-deal/
Wow. The blue no matter who liberals are downvoting a queer person now. It’s almost like they don’t give a shit about your needs as a person and only want to campaign on an abstract that is LGBTQ rights.
Solidarity with you, comrade.
Yes, but wisely by evolving beyond it, not by trying to fight a Goliath directly in their strongest areas. We’re smart, we should be able to come up with real solutions.
Here’s weird thought experiment
Think of our current government as scaffolding that we’re all standing on 100 floors high, that is right on top of a slave/homeless/refugee camp/zoo (i.e. vulnerable populations). This scaffolding must be replaced because it’s made out of rotting wood without sending us all crashing down on the camp and zoo killing billions of people and animals.
How do we do it?
The right wing position is to tear down the scaffolding by getting positions in site management and ordering replacing the rotting wood with broken plastic while kicking everyone they don’t like, sometimes pushing them off the scaffolding. Of course, they don’t care about any what the scaffolding is holding up or what’s below, they just realized they can use this scaffold system to gain power and money.
The tankie position is to get your rotten wood hating friends together with their hammers and torches and start bashing. I guess they are either 1) seemingly unaware this will cause us all to fall, or 2) remember when it worked 100 years ago with the scaffolding was only 1 floor high and only a few people underneath and think it will be the same this time, or 3) are effectively right wingers on a different team in that they don’t care about collateral damage as long as their team can rise from the ashes into power.
The liberal position is to put some polish on the wood and some rainbow and recycling stickers on some poles and send a few TV dinners below while we dump our trash down there and not admit that there are slaves down there making our stuff. The long-term problem of scaffold failure is talked about at various conferences and people donate millions to the “Replace the Rot” foundation.
I say the best way to go about it is to replace it part by part as it stands. Depend less and less on the bits of rotting wood and more on the strong sustainable replacements we build. Don’t replace the very high bits that were built for ego by weak men, instead lift those underneath up onto the strong bits of the scaffold. Eventually we might realize that all that’s left of the old rotting scaffold is that weak bit holding on at the end, might as well lop that off now that it’s not critical to our survival anymore.
Now imagine we have an election between two site managers. Neither of them has any real plans to replace this scaffolding, in fact both have plans to expand it. Both candidates support the genocide in the neighboring scaffold.
Primary differences between candidates
Candidate #1 is going to criminalize talking about the scaffolding, ban encryption to ensure you don’t talk about it, and start a new program to push more people off the scaffold.
Candidate #2 is going to do too little too late when it comes to truly solving the rotting scaffold problem or stopping people from falling off the scaffold.
Now ask yourself, under which candidate can I do more to solve the rotting scaffold problem directly? Under which candidate can I do my little part to solve the problem without falling or being pushed off the scaffold or being arrested? Under which candidate are fewer people going to be pushed off while me and my team go about fixing the scaffold ourselves because the leaders are unwilling or unable?
Voting is not about putting your support behind a candidate or identifying with them, it’s a strategic decision taken to advance your goals.
Oh my sweet uninformed reformest, my undying love 😘Sorry i shouldn’t be too sarcastic, but really you’re so close. I’ve been where you are. If you’re interest in learning why I changed my views I’d recommend reading Reform or Revolution by Rosa Luxembourg. In short, while unions, reformists, and the expansion of social democracy are important to the development of clsss consciousess, they alone cannot create a socialist society. Revolution is required.
I’m almost as enlightened as you are huh? lol
Who said I want a socialist society? I’m an anarcho-communist, I have never seen positions of authority, left or right, not abuse the position. A society that can function without some subset claiming authority and using violence to coerce others to gain and maintain power is what we should be striving for.
Ancom fits yeah, and i dont entirely disagree with you. I just dont see how that can be accomplished without revolution. Those in power don’t typically give up that power without violence. I don’t see how infiltrating a system run by and for the ruling class, designed specifically to benefit them, and attempting to make it better is supposed to work. The ruling class could just get rid of you no?
I think I wasn’t clear in my language as multiple people didn’t get what I was intending to say. When I talked of replacing rotting wood part by part but not the high parts, depending less on the rotting parts and lifting people onto the strong parts of the scaffold I wasn’t talking about getting better people into office (though that can be part of making your job as a leftist easier and safer). I was talking about dual power and degrowth.
I think it’s not radical communist to take a position that would likely lead to billions of people of dying from famine and lack of medicine etc only to put your favorite authoritarian into power to become corrupted itself over the following decades. All positions of power become corrupted, no exceptions. We need to move towards degrowth and decentralization of everything, especially power.
The only reason 8 billion + people can live on this planet is because of the Green Revolution, i.e. nitrogen that comes from our oil industry. If we actually had the kind of revolution that could lead to a socialist system the delicate supply chains of oil and food globally would almost certainly be interrupted. This could lead to crop failures and famine, massive inflation and probably end up in more places going fascist than moving left. Unless you can teach enough people about socialism before the revolution, they’re going to look for safety and find a false sense of it in fascist authoritarians.
Remember, the revolutions of the early 20th were before the Green Revolution, there were 2 billion people on the planet and a much larger percentage than today knew how to support themselves by growing food and hunting, protect themselves etc. Today a revolution like that would look more like Gaza is looking right now with an entire population on the brink of starving to death.
If we actually want a better future, we need to build it, and not wait to start building until after some revolution that might never come. What does that look like? It looks like communities growing food together, protecting themselves without police, dropping out of popular culture, changing culture to not value what capitalists are selling us. We need cultural evolution, not war.
Anarcho-communism is by definition socialist. It’s also far left wing. Be careful who you are criticising.
I suppose, these words are so nebulous. I understand socialism as needing a state and (real, not authoritarian) communism as being incompatible with a state.
Then you understand it wrong. Communism is socialism by definition. Maybe try actually looking up the definition of socialism that marxists and anarchists actually use. It’s a broad term but not a nebulous one as it has a concrete definition: a society where the working class own/control the means of production.
A reformist Anarchist? I have legitimately never heard of that kind of combination, lmao. You cannot achieve an ancom society via reform, that’s utter utopianism. Anarcho-communism can only be achieved via revolution, and not even the whole pitchforks and torches kind.
Check Anarcho-Syndicalism if you want an actual, practical plan for achieving an Anarchist society, or read modern AnCom theory.
If these ideas are the only workable ideas, why have they failed for the last century?
We need new ideas that are built on the understanding of our current world. Even places where “leftists” got to power they just turned into capitalist dictatorships or cruel experiments in how far propaganda can be pushed and how much populations can endure suffering and helplessness.
You’re believing in silliness if you think violent revolution in 2024 will end up in anything but massive death and fascism. We don’t have the numbers to win, all we’d end up doing is scaring voters into putting people into power that will put you in prison and become dictators.
They haven’t failed, I even suggested reading modern theory. Reform has never worked, and never gotten off the ground.
I didn’t suggest violent revolution, that’s why I’m suggesting you read modern Anarchist theory, like Anarcho-Syndicalist theory.
It’s like you read only keywords and answered off of vibes.
I love seeing incredibly uniformed opinions around Marxist leninist positions.
Have you ever read like, anything a serious marxist leninist theorist and organizer wrote about conditions in the United States?
I have read some, but I don’t need to read deep republican theory to see why their ideas are fundamentally wrong any more than I need to “read theory” to see fundamental issues with “Marxist” positions.
I’ve read “On Authority” and see it’s obvious flaws.
I mean, you obviously have not read enough if you think MLs are “burn it all down, don’t worry about the consequences” you understand Republicans because you’ve been exposed to them throughout your life, how many times have you had a long conversation with a communist?
I am not surprised someone linked you to “on authority” but reading a brief retort to anarchists is not the same as understanding dialectical materialism, scientific socialism, the business cycle, the tendency or rate of profit to fall, uneven development theory, marxist feminism, marxist anticolonialism, proletarian democracy, prefigurative politics, etc
Why do you assume I don’t know these ideas just because I don’t agree with you? I am familiar with all of that, maybe not at your level, but enough to know I disagree fundamentally with the methods even if our compassion may be in common. I’ve talked with enough tankies that “burning it all down” is an apt enough description. War tends to do that.
There is nothing I could read that would convince me that massive authoritarian power structures put in place by war are the way to a stable sustainable peaceful future, the same way nothing I could read would make me believe in santa claus.
Why do you assume I don’t know these ideas just because I don’t agree with you?
Because you straight up said you’ve avoided looking into it in detail, your previous words:
I have read some, but I don’t need to read deep republican theory to see why their ideas are fundamentally wrong any more than I need to “read theory” to see fundamental issues with “Marxist” positions.
Also because from what I’ve read, you take a fundamentally reformist position which Marx painstakingly disproved the viability of over 150 years ago. If you’ve read capital to completion, or hell, just understood some of their short texts very well and extrapolated things yourself, you’d know a reformist position is unviable, and even if it were viable, would be magnitudes more violent than the worst mistakes and excesses of any ML movement.
I disagree fundamentally with the methods even if our compassion may be in common.
What methods do you disagree were inappropriate for the situations they occurred in? Because marxist leninists will probably agree that there was a mistake there to learn from, or will point out factors that might you might be uniformed or misinformed about.
Voting is not about putting your support behind a candidate or identifying with them, it’s a strategic decision taken to advance your goals.
maybe for you, but your values aren’t universal.
I suppose I should’ve said it shouldn’t be, people can and do of course think all kinds of silly and illogical things. It’s a poor strategic choice at the individual and group level to identify with a candidate but to each their own. Propaganda gets us all.
Voting is not about putting your support behind a candidate
this is the bit that i found most objectionable. almost all the rhetoric around an election talks about support: financial, popular, or political.
voting is definitely supporting a candidate, pretty much any way you slice it.
almost all the rhetoric around an election talks about support: financial, popular, or political
Yes, it’s to the candidtates benefit for voters to identify with candidates, it’s not generally in the voters interest.
, it’s a strategic decision taken to advance your goals.
this part also assumed universal goals. one of my goals is to smash capital and the state. the democrat party will most definitely be part of that. voting for them doesn’t advance my goals.
And I suppose Roe v. Wade doesn’t factor into your goals then either?
i don’t want the government involved in anything. why would i want them deciding the degree to which they should be involved in someone’s healthcare?
that’s been overturned. you cant get it reinstated without an act of congress.
The funny part as a third party voter, I think we would think different ones are distinctly worse.
Trump not fashy enough for you?
I am not going to vote for trump, but I can see which party is using the government to attack him and how terrible the current admin has been doing.
Yes, holding a person accountable for their crimes (maybe, jury is still out) is attacking them…
Unless you’re talking media coverage. Cause we all know that the media is an arm of the government…
maybe, jury is still out
Actually, for the New York civil fraud suit, Trump forgot to ask for a jury trial. But the judge very much found him guilty. In the E Jean Carol case, he was found guilty by not cooperating with discovery, and the jury was pretty clear on the 92m damages.
So nah, the jury has made up their minds.
Fair, I intended that more as an idiom really. I mean whether or not the punishment goes through. He’s so damned slippery I’m not taking anything as truth until the buildings have been seized/ he’s in jail.
But yeah, they did make up their minds there.
Yes I am aware of the line “TRUMP BAD CRIMINAL!!!” so you guys cant see when malicious prosecution is happening. The facts are right in front of you, you can either follow your team to the countries destruction, or call out injustices. I already know you are going to just be a team player.
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are you actually trying to argue that Donald Trump is in any way, shape, or form a victim of injustice?
Yes
Is this a joke?
No
And there are plenty of other examples of injustice when it comes to politics in the last few years.
what was malicious about it?
It’s terribly rude to force rich white people to deal with the consequences of their illegal actions.
I suppose I might have used the word malicious wrongly because I am not a lawyer, but what i was referring to was all of the cases. I am in real estate and know the real estate one very well, and that is absolute bullshit, and he did nothing wrong. That is what I meant by the words malicous prosecution.
Is this not the point of a trial? To ascertain fact and adjudicate appropriately? Hell, this is explicitly the point of a grand jury, to determine if a trial is merited in the first place. And they’ve found, several times, that taking the charges to trial is justified. Not even that he’s guilty, but that it’s worth looking into.
Additionally, what facts am I missing? He wasn’t exactly subtle with seeking to commit crimes (“Only stupid people pay taxes” comes to mind as a softball, but the fact that he was never held to the emoluments clause also stands out. Plus all the fraud and rape). Where is the misunderstanding in all this? He was found to be a rapist by a judge. He was found to have committed fraud by a different judge.
The misunderstanding isn’t yours, it’s the general publics understanding of the legal system and it’s processes. Which has been misinformed by decades of American criminal dramas like Law and Order, CSI, and NCIS. No one in this thread will go to rich people court like Trump gets to, we all get regular court if we get the privileged right to a court date. So when misinformed Trump supporters hear the judge ruled from the bench they see an overreach. When Trump’s legal team presented such a bad defense and showed a complete disregard for the court and it’s ruling in their opinion it wasn’t his team who did a bad job, but a judge who never gave him a chance.
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So, same as usual then.
You aren’t fooling anyone.
Please, tell me how the current admin is doing terribly.
Palestinians are literally starving to death because this administration gave your tax dollars to the AMIC to arm Israel for a genocide. The entire world sees what we’re doing and abhors it. I don’t pretend it would be somehow better under Trump, but this is not good by any definition.
I’m no trump supporter but
💀
The only things that the Biden administration has done that’s bad is genocide obviously, but a little genocide never hurt anybody… I guess you could try blaming him for inflation or gas prices, or the fallout of COVID-19, but that would be kind of dumb
You can, of course, say he hasn’t done enough, which wouldn’t be wrong, but the things he’s done have had a pretty positive effect on the country and have brought us at least a little closer to the left – even with an opposing congress. I can’t say I like how he treats, say, nationalism and the Middle East, but he’s at least somewhat redeemed himself from just being a “moderate Republican” I would say. At least his administration has brought in officials who are tougher on corporations, even if he’s still a corporate Democrat.
See the problem I have with the Israel argument is that a Trump admin would go even harder on supporting Israel, soooo
The Biden regime still routinely kidnaps immigrant children from their families and puts them all in concentration camps.
“A little bit left” my whole ass.
Do you have any particular policies or are you just going to make claims? Trump’s policies were not good for the American working class, which is the vast majority of Americans.
His landmark legislation, the 2017 tax cuts, gave temporary marginal cuts to working people while giving substantial permanent cuts to corporations. He promised to fix healthcare. He didn’t. He promised to stop jobs from going overseas. He didn’t and, in fact, more jobs went overseas under him than Obama. He promised to fix the national debt. He increased it. He made a terrible deal with OPEC to cut oil production, which led to short term gains but eventually caused oil prices to skyrocket when economies recovered from Covid. His trade war with China hurt the US economy (for example, farmers who he had to bail out).
These are just some examples. There are many Biden policies that I am against but if you’re going to claim this admin has been worse for Americans than Trump’s admin, you need to provide examples.
I never said I like trump or all the things he did, but I do think its obvious he was/is better. Most presidents make lots of promises they intentioanlly or unintentionally dont follow through with. I can see you disagree with many of his policies, that is completely fair. But lets discuss what was wrong with Biden.
Without looking at policies I dont like here are the things off the top of my head that are/were objective failures. Afghanistan withdrawl was one of the worst failures n american history; people were hoarding baby food due to handling of that issue, the illegal migration issue that is currently happening that were directly due to his repealing of trump rules, insane spending that exasperates the inflation issue. This doesnt even get into the foolish policies that we could argue about, but are failures.
I think this comment has the most downvotes I’ve ever seen on Lemmy…
Thats mean I hit a chord.
Are they both objectively terrible?
I mean, trump seems obvious. Unstable wannabe tyrant/dictator from a party of evangelical theocrats, criminal, fraudster, blatant liar, thief, rapist, sycophant of dictators, insurrectionist, wife beater…and we haven’t even dug in to the party that supports this behavior along with their LGBTQ hate, restricting womens’ rights, voter fraud, election fraud, gun rights > your life, handing everything to the billionaires, environmental destruction of most every kind, and of course their NAZI underpinnings.
Joe is a career politician with all the baggage that goes with that, but he’s not actively and willfully sabotaging the country.
One has worked with Bernie Sanders and helped get some his goals achieved in policy and legislature.
The other hired his own children despite their inability to get security clearances, cheated on his wife while she was at home with their newborn, paid illegal hush money over that matter, stole classified documents and likely gave them to adversaries, likely compromised national security multiple times, sowed doubt in our elections with zero evidence to back it up, blew up the debt, fucked up the Supreme Court and has said he’d ignore the constitution, term limits all of that.
But both sides amirite?
The list is so long I’d forgotten about that stuff too.
Yea but don’t forget, since I’m not getting 100% of what I want, the way I want, achieved precisely when I want it… then they are both the same.
Maybe.
“I let my hatred willfully blind me to admitting trump is a sack of shit and I’d prefer a dictatorship to democracy if that pisses off the libs. Bonus: I get to be a bastard too because the libs will be shut up unless they want to go to a reeducation camp.”
More likely.
E: I re-read what you said and realized I didn’t get it right. Do Dems really think like that, or is it just general apathy of some Dems and the independent voters?
Seth Meyers had a pretty good list at the beginning of this segment a couple weeks ago
Here is an alternative Piped link(s):
https://piped.video/GT2WmC0YS9Q
Piped is a privacy-respecting open-source alternative frontend to YouTube.
I’m open-source; check me out at GitHub.
To put them in perspective, I think of being on an airplane. The flight attendant comes down the aisle with her food cart and, eventually, parks it beside my seat. “Can I interest you in the chicken?” she asks. "Or would you prefer the platter of shit with bits of broken glass in it? To be undecided in this election is to pause for a moment and then ask how the chicken is cooked.
David Sedaris
And then not voting is like the attendant coming back after everyone else has made their choice but she only has one of the options left for you
And you HAVE TO eat it.
And then watch videos of eating it 3-4 times a day for the next 4 years.
I thought primaries were still happening? Not the general election.
Both are objectively terrible, the Democrats are tepid liberals that are trying to put band-aids on gaping holes in a sinking ship rather than solving the underlying issues.
The GOP is, of course, fascist, and thus far worse, but in the sinking ship that is America, continuing to sink without fixing the underlying issues is bad as well.
Actually fixing the problems is far greater than the DNC, which is far greater than the GOP.
Edit: no, I’m not advocating for third party voting, I plan on voting for Biden, because I believe change must come from below. Begging the DNC to fix the gaping problems with American society will never get anything done, ever. Organize, donate to strike funds, actually try to build pressure from below.
People really seem to think Biden should have a magic wand, or should somehow impose things the majority of Americans are against and when he can’t they say he’s the devil. It’s so silly.
I’m far more radical left than most people and I’ve come to accept that, I have faith in the strength of my ideas and that they’ll displace capitalism but understand it’ll be a struggle and a fight. Biden has very likely literally no concept of the ideals I value, I imagine it’d take me hours to explain the importance of open source software for example and I don’t expect he’d take it on board very seriously even at best so of course I wouldn’t pick him as the leader of my.movememt but that’s not what people are being asked to pick, they’re picking the president of the whole country so of course he’s also going to have to work in the existing frameworks and with the many factions that exist.
I don’t expect Biden to do anything other than continue the American Liberal project, but I’m also not a reformist, I don’t believe it’s possible to vote Capitalism into Socialism. I only vote for Biden because it appears to me that it is easier to organize a grassroots movement under liberals than under fascists.
Liberalism won’t make America better, it just won’t make it fascist as quickly as the fascist party.
If it wasn’t for his position regarding Israel and Palestine, I would have been pleasantly surprised by Biden overall. His administration seemed to be making a lot of good moves for a bunch of liberals.
Joe is a self-admitted Zionist. He’s also a U.S. President and unfortunately for the Palestinians, U.S. hegemony in the Middle East is entirely predicated on a stable U.S.-friendly Country (i.e Israel) in the region.
“If we didn’t have an Israel, we’d probably have to make one.” ~Joe Biden
It’s a shit-trap, for any POTUS regardless of their personal beliefs
That depends what you think the greatest threats to quality of life for the average in American are. I believe the greatest threat is the corrupt system, which gives more power and money to the rich and screws over almost everyone else, and both of those candidates are firmly entrenched in it.
They both know and embrace their role in that system, although they would phrase it in different terms.
Finally, you asked about objective terribleness. But there is no such thing. This is all subjective, because of course it is, the country has hundreds of millions of residents who all have different priorities.
It is a choice between pest and cholera one might be a bit less bad than the other, but realistically you don’t want either.
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I just read a book and looked it up. you’re right.
it’s just the systemic attacking and wiping out of a group of people.
but not a genocide.
Your lefty peers hate you back, because you’re a class traitor and a imperialist shill. Just so you know.
Proving that liberals like fascism when it’s not pointing at them. To them, it is a weapon that should be wielded against their opponents rather than a blight that needs to be eradicated before it kills us all. Your irresponsibility will have devastating consequences.
Biden is a card carrying capitalist, so yes, both are objectively terrible.
Why don’t you move to Venezuela then if you don’t like capitalism?
Venezuela is over 75% privatized. It’s Capitalist.
so it’s 25% evil? therefore contaminated, and 100% evil?
Then I wouldn’t be able to redistribute your wealth :)
The bad parts of capitalism are the authoritarianism and the grift. Venezuela, like any soviet structured entity is not an alternative to capitalism, its just imperialism wearing a different coat of paint
Why don’t you move to South Korea if you love capitalism so much. I heard quality of life there is through the roof.
Not voting is a conservative ploy. It’s their best chance.
The process of evolving your leadership remains the same:
-
pick the least-worse option, based on who can realize goals they’re pitching that actually help people.
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repeat step 1 every election.
Since the conservatives in my country have no platform other than “My opponent is terrible!” they should be disqualified … but aren’t.
There is a real conversation that needs to be had about how do we drive the democrats left. Biden is not getting my vote. But I live in Delaware where he has no chance of losing*. I will vote green party.
The democrats are courting Republicans and old republican platforms. Joe Biden sounds like George Bush. I didn’t hear or remember a single progressive thing in his state of the union but I heard issues driven by republican wants and unions sort of. I hear support but I don’t see what Biden is doing. We have Supreme Court cases in line to strip the national labor board and almost all cabinet departments from governing yet I haven’t heard a peep from the administration
Typo*
Biden has no chance of winning Delaware despite winning it in 2020? What changed?
Oops typo. Biden has no chance of losing in Delaware why I am voting 3rd party. If I lived in Pennsylvania I would totally vote for him
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And you dont see how voting for the “lesser evil” allows both parties to move further and further right? I was actually taken aback by how blatant you were in your steps, most liberals dont state it so directly.
I’m gonna assume(hope) you think American foreign policy is bad real quick. Biden is complicit in a genocide, like an actual child killing, people starving, oppressor disguising bombs as canned food genocide. Sure trump is hypothetically worse, but by voting for biden you are showing the democratic party that you are willing to vote for someone who is actually genocidal. You are showing them that they can commit genocide when it benefits them and you’ll still vote for them. Of course this isn’t the only incredibly horrific thing the american establishment does that neither party budges on and the american populace just accepts. It’s just the worst and most obvious at the moment.
Always remember that Germany voted for Hindenburg
Why do you target Biden though? If you ever voted before, chances are the candidate you voted for had the same complicit stance with Isreal. Is this really how you fix it?
I haven’t voted in a presidential election before (in my early 20s), however if i had i would wish that i didn’t. I target biden becuase he is currently arming and aiding fascists.
As for fixing the israel issue; i’m hoping, praying that democrats see the threat of being unelectable due to their complicity as more important than aiding a genocide. If biden ended his support of israel i’d actually vote for him. I dont have much else i like about him, many things i really dislike about him even, but thats normal for US presidential candidates. Its the genocide that pushed me over the edge, i cant budge on that.
If you meant fixing US politics then I would say that is not possible without radical change of our current political system.
Doesn’t this boil down to what-about-ism then, if we we denounce our state as fascist when in the case of our neighbors, while holding our grievance against state for the crimes against the population as a whole. Lesser or greater evil means our democratic voice is used against those that would lead us into darker times still rather than try to facilitate trust. I’m just saying it’s a silly self-defeating manipulation acting out without regard to trust.
Your mistake is thinking Trump would stop the war in Gaza, and not end the war in Ukraine in the worst possible manner, by giving Putin everything he needs to exterminate the Ukrainians.
You really need to pay better attention to what’s going on. I’m embarrassed for you here.
I absolutely do not think that bro 💀
And you dont see how voting for the “lesser evil” allows both parties to move further and further right?
I see a lot of people who aren’t voting using this logic and I don’t really understand it.
If there are some number of candidates running, and the most left wing candidate wins each time, how does that push the country to the right?
The rich benefit most from politically right policies and the rich are our governing body. If you vote for the most left candidate no matter how far on the right they realistically are then they will just continue to move right because thats what benefits them. I imagine part of your problem is that maybe you view the democratic party as left? It is not, both american political parties are on the right, one is just a little more left than the other. Let me know if this makes sense, i did a lot of work today and my brain is a little fried so im not sure how well i explained that.
That doesn’t really make sense, but I appreciate the honest effort.
Good luck, I hope you remember that one of Trump and Biden is going to be the next president whether you vote or not. Which one do you think is going to push the US farther to right? (That’s a rhetorical question that you should answer for yourself, no one else’s opinion really matters here)
Let me rephrase then now that im back home.
The American government as with all capitalist governments is run by and for the owning class. Notice how our elected officials are property owners and business owners. They typically have a lot of investments in large business etc etc. So it follows that they would run their government in a way that would protect or bolster their investments. Whats good for business is good for them. This is why the “economy” and GDP are so talked about in our politics, its incredibly important to our elected officials and our unelected officials such as CEOS that the businesses they have invested into continue to turn a profit. Businesses will lobby and bribe politicians for laws that work in their favor and our politicians do it because it is in their best interests to do so. This extends beyond just maintaining a low minimum wage, refusing to pass rent control laws, cutting welfare, keeping privatized healthcare, loosening child labor laws, bailing out failed businesses, and writing loopholes into our tax laws that allows the owning class to evade them. It is also the reason the US overthrows democratically elected governments, invades sovereign nations, and funds far right insurgencies. Ultimately every single decision the US makes can be boiled down to protecting the interests of the owning class.
So, both the Democratic and Republican party have essentially the same interests. The main difference being that the Democratic party gives a few more concessions to the working class because it needs to maintain a voting body and it knows that pushing workers to hard can cause a revolution. It wants to extract as much profit as possible without risking a loss of power. The Republican party just does a little more for the owning class and a lot less for the working class.
Voting for the left most party no matter how far right they actually are because the other party is worse shows them that they can maintain their power and capital while doing less and less for the working class. Why should the Democratic party give you free healthcare, free education, a better wage, less working hours, or better working conditions if you’re gonna vote for them anyway. The far right republican is an incredibly useful tool for the Democratic party because it means they can maintain their position of power without actually doing the things you want them to do. Hell they even fund them. As for foreign policy, there’s little difference between the parties. They both know they can get away with bombing millions of innocent people bc wtf are we gonna do about it? Vote harder? For who?
As for israel specifically, im hoping that the Democratic party is worried enough about losing their executive power that they stop comitting a genocide but I truly honestly doubt it will happen. AIPAC is a very powerful lobbying group and the ruling class who benefit from the existence of Israel know that they can get what they want regardless of who is elected.
Your logic is fucked.
Could you expand on that?
You’ve admitted that you are young and haven’t been around for large scale issues and deep seated treaties and ally-ships that lead to the development of global political issues. It is incredibly understandable that given your age and experience you’ve summed up your decision into what you’ve currently seen in the news and perhaps the few bullet-point-history issues you’ve read up on.
The issues going on with Israel are enormously complex and are not as simple as who’s land it is, who is keeping who away, and who is committing genocide. Yes, it is horrible, and it would be ideal if our political leader could step up and call out that country for those actions. The unfortunate reality from a geopolitical perspective and from the strategic perspective of being a world leader that needs to think many, many steps ahead is that the middle east is a very hostile area, and Israel is very strategically placed to not only have an ally, but also to keep key ports open - both for economic and military reasons.
Making a statement against the actions of Israel would have been detrimental to future global peace options. Instead, Biden can work with Netanyahu behind the scenes without making an official statement.
No, fuck you, there’s no justification for aiding a genocide. It is absolutely as simple as who is committing a genocide, you should have zero tolerance for it. Would you give bullets to someone after watching them shoot a kid if it benefitted you? The US can survive without israel and the people of the middle east would be better off without both the US and Israel. American and its client state are a destabilizing force in the region and that is not an accident. Can you even name a time where US invention in that region helped the people who live there? I dont want biden to work out an agreement with natanyahu, i want netanyahu to face the fucking wall.
You are still being incredibly naive.
Would you give bullets to someone after watching them shoot a kid if it benefitted you?
It has nothing to do with it benefiting me - or specifically the US as the case with Israel goes, or even the party or the politician. As I tried to describe in my original comment, it is a strategic move for GLOBAL PEACE - not just the US. This is not only about US intervention, which it is clear you have a lot of thoughts about, but also about the ports and access to resources both in and out for all of the countries in that region, and militaries of all countries. And destroying our only allyship in that region (not just us, but the other countries that have maintained their stance with Israel), maintains the ability to keep a foothold in that region.
If someone just shot a child in front of me, would I give them bullets? If they controlled the only access to all of the resources (oil, water, food, etc) that would cause my other allies to die without during times of crisis, I would absolutely consider it. That does not mean it would come without limitations.
For you to still think this way after it being explained to you shows how shortsighted and limited you are thinking.
From the rest of your comments, it’s clear that you are very interested in politics and learning a lot, which is good! And you’ve gotten to a lot of topics, also good. But it seems like you have gotten to the surface level issues and become very passionate about them and it’s that way or the highway instead of looking any deeper.
The US is not interested in global peace. It is not engaging in genocide for the peace. The idea that you can murder civilians for peace is ludicrous. I fully understand that the US and Israel control much of the resources in the region and regularly engage militarily. I am also aware that maintaining a foothold in that region is very important for the western ruling class. Im an not disagreeing with these facts. I am saying that these things are wrong and should not be done. I am saying the US, Israel, and numerous other western powers have done significantly more harm than good for the people within that region. I am also saying that no one should have that much control over those resources because it gives them the power to commit these sorts of atrocities.
Let me be clear, israel should not exist and before you lecture me on how nuanced and actually super complicated it is because theres been conflict in that region for 3000 years; i am well aware of the history. Everything before the establishment of the israeli state is nearly irrelevant to the current context. I fundamentally disagree with the existence of a settler colonial state.
The US and other western powers have no innate right to the resources of that land. Every single one of them can exist without israel. We should not have to pay for our resources in blood. Their influence in that area is not in the name of world peace and security but in the monetary interests of our ruling class. Western capitalists are a major cause of instability in that region.
Maybe if our current system of government requires the murder and systemic exploitation of hundreds of millions of people in order to provide for its citizens then it should not exist.
As for my anology, would you think differently if you had a gun too? The US has invaded and couped for with significantly less justification. It is not unreasonable to say that israel could be dismantled by force, it will likely have to be.
I think you’re much too resigned to your current reality. Its easy to look the other way and pretend the horrors are justified because of some sort of complexity. Telling yourself there is good reason or that theres nothing that can be done is very surely very comforting.
Idk maybe it’s cause I don’t live in as much of a two party system as the US, but essentially still a two party system.
I think there’s value in strategic voting. I don’t know what the equivalent would be in the US but strategic voting for the lesser of two evils at a national level and then voting more true to your convictions at a municipal and provincial level is still valid.
Again my opinions probably don’t work in the US electoral system, but voter apathy is a big part of how rights get eroded where I’m from. A party or political figure stays in power because of apathy and then they just keep getting away with shit. At least if you cast a vote it can be seen as you participating in the democracy.
I will say there is something to the act of not voting as being a part of democracy, but truly I think along with abstaining any functioning democracy needs a “none” option.
I think you are dead on. You do this to let the common voice speak.
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The way to fight the 2 party system, starts at the grass roots and grows upwards, you can Not fight it from the top down.
The only other fast way to fight it is with violence, but without clear national unity and already decent leadership it usually results in some form of autocracy, making the situation worse.
Edit: violent revolution* usually doesn’t work, but violence itself can be rather effective
I think you’ve falsely equated violence with revolution.
There are currently arsonists in Atlanta and elsewhere in the US fighting the creation of cop city and projects like it via property damage. That is violence with no danger of creating an autocracy. I’d argue the Black Panthers, the Suffragettes and the IRA all used violence which posed no danger of autocracy.
I do agree that strong group unity, some form of multistate participation, and good leadership and structure, are all very important for it to yield positive results.
Edit: put NRA instead of IRA, fuck me. Fixed now.
Very good point, my bad.
So say we all.
Get yourself some Approval Voting and Proportional Representation at the state and local level! Volunteer with Election Science to make it happen!
Oh man, the fucking sass in the comments of this post. You’re all so passionate about these things.
… And almost all of the arguments are whataboutisms. It’s a fucking race to the bottom with everyone.
All I’m going to say is that not voting is not a valid way to protest. That’s excluding yourself from the process, and letting others decide for you. Just go vote. I’m not going to tell you who to vote for, just go do it. Have your voice heard.
I realize this years vote for Americans will very likely turn into a competition of who is less bad of an option, but you need to still go out and cast a ballot. Please just do it. Please!
He was equally alert to the problem of voter fetishism: voters mistakenly thinking the vote is an exercise of power, when in fact power in a capitalist society is collective, social and located largely outside the parliamentary realm. Elections had a place, but they were no substitute for mass working-class action in the workplaces, streets and squares. Ultimately power must be wrested from the capitalist class in revolution.
For like 99% of people arguing that ‘voting is useless’ they are also not working towards any other method of improving society. Either by working towards unions, or effective means of protest or even violent revolution. They’re just opting out and doing nothing of value while feeling smug about being ‘above’ such petty squabbles.
If you are the 1% actually doing something of value that isn’t voting. Congrats, I guess? But I think I’m far more likely to convince someone to vote, which is at least somewhat helpful than I am to convince them to join a revolution.
Let’s hope you have the privilege to vote after Nov 5.
I can assure you they do not feel smug, or above the squabbles. They are probably more freaked out than the multitudes that think Trump can’t possibly win, or a Biden victory saves Democracy. It fundamentally sucks to see where America is headed, and be individually powerless to stop it.
This is asinine. Trump has literally threatened to use dictatorial methods on his first day in office.
It’s like approaching Hitler and Joe Rogan in the same room but you’ve only got one bullet. And instead of using it, you just walk away talking about how they both suck. Like, kill fucking Hitler, what are you doing?
The real answer is to have them put their heads together.
Wait, is Joe Biden promising to kill Trump if elected? Shit, why didn’t you say so?
There’s a pretty good chance Trump will die of a heart attack or flee to Russia if convicted of a crime with serious prison time.
I don’t think Trump can run anywhere anymore.
Since when is Joe Rogan bad enough to warrant getting shot in the first place? I feel like the guy has said some bad (and far more dumb) things but it’s not like he poses any kind of danger to anyone does he? I know this is besides the point, but murder is far from proportional to anything (that I am aware of) that Joe has been known to do. With that said I don’t really know much about what he’s been up to for the past 5 years or so.
It would be so much better if we just had rank choice voting
Then you might want to vote for the party that hasn’t made RCV illegal in 4 states.
And that party is? Yes, I really don’t know.
The GOP has made RCV illegal in Tennessee, Florida & 3 other states.
Interesting. Thanks for the info. I know the DNC administers the electors* in the college and have always been under the impression they’d not be for RCV, either.
edit: Oh fuck you, whoever is downvoting. Quit being a triggered cunt. I asked a good question, got a good answer, and shared what I know. Nothing I contributed to this thread is downvote worthy unless you’re just a triggerd narrative controlling parasite. Fuuuuck you.
Do you have any evidence that the DNC are against RCV?
But why would I? If I said I was only under an impression based on their direct management of the electoral college, isn’t it pretty clear I was speaking for myself based on my own opinion? I obviously didn’t state it’s fact.
Or proportional representation
Por que no los dos?
Nope, never lost my DOS, I made backups.
Rank choice, and more party options to use it on
We had a brief chance to elect Sanders and we failed. Hillary gave us Trump.
I was more in favor of Yang, tbh. Dude had some forward-thinking ideas
A lot of my American friends are buying into this both sides thing, they say prices are up and the democrats aren’t doing enough to deal with the climate so neither really care about anything…
I’ve been an eco obsessive since the 90s so to me it’s painfully clear the night and day difference between the two parties, trying to explain it is so hard because they’ve got their talking points like more drilling under Biden than Trump but when you try to talk about the lag effects related to leased land it’s all just hand waved away - they’ve seen people talking about it as true and not mentioning that lease sales are at all time lows which will result in significantly less permits in future years so it’s ‘Biden bad, end of story.’ Saying ‘they say there’ll be less but they say anything, they said there would be less now’ totally ignoring the logic of the argument.
Right wing psychological experts plan these talking points and seed them, the left falls for them every time it’s so frustrating.
I think part of the problem is people want the world to be simple, the immigration issue is another thing a lot of my left voting friends are struggling with at the moment, blaming the housing crisis on immigration for example then I point out immigrants working construction is super common and they say why don’t they work instead of being put up in hotels so I say there’s a complex process involved in getting a right to work designed to protect American jobs and many are rejected and returned to their country of origin without obtaining this right… but again ‘it’s super complex and messy but they’re trying to improve things’ is easily shrugged off just like with the climate argument by saying ‘they only say they’re trying, trying means nothing only actions matter’
The problem is the two parties play totally different games with totally different objectives. One is trying to tangle a ball of yarn into.a mess and the other is attempting to untangle it and knit a cardigan.
One is trying to tangle a ball of yarn into.a mess and the other is attempting to untangle it and knit a cardigan.
Building on this metaphor, one of my single biggest frustrations with the left is how many of them won’t accept anything short of a fully knit cardigan; unless they get exactly what they want, they’d rather just hand it over to the tanglers.
The issue that I am passionate about is election reform. Including things like getting rid of gerrymandering, making voting more accessible, making the houses more representative of the people, and breaking down big donor influence on elections and policy. Neither of the big two parties comes close to making any of this happen.
If these things are not fixed, the parties in control can do whatever they want. They can keep us divided by shouting about one passion-based issue in public then doing nothing about it while serving big donor interests in legislation.
I don’t see how any mainstream issue matters when you can’t trust elected officials to act on any issue you care about. That is unless you are one of the self-interested donors who writes your own bills. Then it still doesn’t matter which party is in power because you can control them both.
Off topic slightly, but I’ve seen on Lemmy lately where people are saying “get rid of gerrymandering” and I’m curious about the argument for this.
Honestly, I’d love for it to happen, but I assumed it was impossible in a Representative Democracy because of how the system/math worked. Kinda of an inherit problem. Mostly because the ways I’ve heard to remedy this issue is to distribute districts in such a way that they more closely resemble their population ratios. However, isn’t this also a form of gerrymandering? Districts are getting set to way we think they should be. Not saying that wrong persay, just feel like a bandage solution. Like we’re beating a nail in with a wrench. In a way though, this reminds me of the Observer Effect in a way
There isn’t a perfect way to draw districts. I like sortest splitline for its simplicity and impartial strategy.
The best solution I can see is to evolve the House of Representatives into a body of proportional representation. This could be done in state level houses as well. Single winner, or other small number of winners elections should have ranked choice to make it harder for parties to maintain dominance.
This was more of the point I was trying to hit but couldn’t think of
isn’t this also a form of Gerrymandering?
no.
gerrymandering is editing the borders for your party’s gain.
If it’s done to be balanced and representive, then it isn’t gerrymandering.
there’s a super simple solution: stop having the ruling party be allowed to draw the lines. Have the whole thing be controlled by ordinary government bureaucrats. No-one elected involved at any point.
then, suddenly, impossible for gerrymandering to exist, outside of criminal interference.
Class solidarity, I bet those terms are well received by democrats
As bad as establishment candidates tend to be, trump is far far worse. The problem with the trump supporters is they boil everything down to “X bad, so not X good!” Trump was an outsider which is why they supported him, but just being an outsider doesn’t automatically make you good, and in his case he’s far worse.
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It’s not for no reason. It’s because they have stuff we want. Whether that’s resources, land, strategic locations, etc., that’s the reason. Furthermore, we have the means to acquire those things we want. On the great stage, that’s often justification enough.
To be fair, we’re not the only one.
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To be fair, for the last 80 years every other country pales in comparison.
two party system is 50% dictatorship, glad my country have multi party system
Yes, patronizing works.
When I say this same thing to the die hard blue team voters I get accused of being a Trumper and a fascist.
Tell them you can criticize and vote at the same time, thats what is supposed to make us different from the Maga chuds.
The left side will not let you defend trump or criticize them, its really bad and I dont think its going to end well.
Why in the world would you want to defend 45?! Lol, lmao even.
I will defend anyone that the government is attacking unfairly, or that the media is lying about.
Do enlighten us on how the government is attacking him unfairly, and the lies the media has told about him.
Lets focus on the media, do you really think the news media tells the truth about trump always, or runs misleading or stories with bad sources on purpose?
I definitely do not like Trump, and this comment is by no means me defending him. He has committed crimes and should be prosecuted. However, certain actions by Dems does suggest he was targeted.
One example is his tax returns. It is a tradition for presidents to voluntarily release them. He chose not to. Then democratic controlled congress fought for several years to have them be released for no real reason except to force him.
I also think that prosecutors in New York would have ignored his fraudulent business practices, which they likely ignored for several years prior, if he hadn’t become president and was seeking re-election.
Again, I am not defending him. Lock him up for his crimes. But I also don’t think the democrats motivation is solely coming from the idea of “justice for all.”
One example is his tax returns. It is a tradition for presidents to voluntarily release them. He chose not to. Then democratic controlled congress fought for several years to have them be released for no real reason except to force him.
Oh you poor delusional soul.
Those tax documents, while evidence of criminal acts, were just a small fraction of the literal 900 bankers boxes of fraud evidence against Trump.
People that understand how our system of government works, understand that Congress has the power of investigation.
Why don’t you understand that?
The best you can come up with is that they asked him for his tax returns to be mean?
Gestures around
Out of ALL THIS, that (and they should have continued ignoring his fraud) is your example of how the government is attacking him unfairly? A speck of sand compared to a dumptruck full of bullshit?
I am pretty sure the New York fraud case that is sending Trump spiraling is the direct result of testimony that his fixer Cohen gave to Congress. You can probably find the relevant testimony on the youtubes. If memory serves AOC was doing some of the important questioning.
That is 100% correct.
Also, nearly every witness against Trump in his criminal trials have been members of the GOP longer than Trump has.
have them be released for no real reason except to force him.
Nope. Turns out that there IS a real reason why public financial disclosure via tax returns has become standards practice for presidential candidates: it’s to show the public that there’s no conflicts of interest to worry about.
That Trump refused to release his was one red flag amongst many indicating that he had foreign business interests that he refused to divest from. Such conflicts of interest are a national security threat in the case of ANY high ranking government official, let alone the president himself.
prosecutors in New York would have ignored his fraudulent business practices, which they likely ignored for several years prior, if he hadn’t become president and was seeking re-election.
So you’re saying that it’s unfair that he no longer gets a free pass to commit tons of crimes now that he’s more publicly visible? Cry me a river!
Again, I am not defending him
Yeah, you are. You may not think that you are, but you definitely are.
Then democratic controlled congress fought for several years to have them be released for no real reason except to force him.
Yes, they did, and he kept refusing to do so, as was his right even if it made him look sus as fuck, especially since his excuse was the lie about being under audit. Only once he was under investigation for fucking fraud were his tax returns actually released, as evidence in the investigations.
This has to be propaganda, right?
This is like saying Capone was treated unfairly because they went after him with everything they had for tax evasion.
Rather than comment on each individual response I figure comment on my own.
I agree with all the points made here.
When they couldn’t get Capone for the murders and rackateering they got him for tax evasion because he deserved it. Trump absolutely deserves all these charges and should go to prison.
I do not believe Trump should get a free pass for his crimes. No one should. I was only suggesting that his crimes may have been ignored until there was a political motivation to look. It shouldn’t have to be that way, but that may have played a role on why they are just now investigating. If they had looked into it earlier it may have disqualified him from running in the first place; which to be clear, is a good thing.
Notice how I didn’t say the Georgia elections case was unfair. He was recorded trying to commit voter fraud and should be charged. There’s plenty in Jan 6th commission report to charge too and I am frustrated that hasn’t happened either.
Whats unfair about the lawsuits against Trump? Afaik, the most unfair bit is that (federalist society weirdo) judge Canon is working her ass off to stall till after the elections.
All of them are things he didnt do wrong, or are something that the other guys in power do, and its not a problem. Literally all of them.
Oh, so, is the defamation case something he didnt do (despite the rock solid evidence), or something he should get away with because other people do it too (the ultimate 6-year-old excuse)?
And does everyone claim their property is worth 500%-800% more for decades on their loan applications?
Have other people gotten away with hiding top secret files in their bathrooms, and lying about having them? Or did that not happen, despite the people moving them being on film?
I don’t even care about the case about campaign finances.
You mentioned four different things, let me address the one I know the most about and is the most obvious. You can claim that your house or property is worth as much as you want, how the process works is that you ask for what you want and claim whatever you want, and then the bank does their underwriting and comes to their own determination of value and how much they want to lend. He did nothing wrong t hat I am aware of.
lol are you living in 2016? Only an absolute rube would believe this is what’s happening to Trump in 2024.
That’s literally what he’s telling you, and his other followers, to say.
There is zero truth in it. If you don’t get that this guy lies to everyone, then I have a bridge I want to sell you.
I literally never listen to trump, I hear the stories and then find out the truth. If you dove deep on any of the things I am talking about, the facts back up what I am saying (or I wouldnt be saying it).
You are fucking stupid. Jfc.
