So the article repeats, several times, “waymo relies on remote operators”. I don’t think the author knows what “self-driving” means.
“self-driving”
Someone else, forreal - driving
A couple years ago, we used to joke around the shop “Of course they used AI - An intern.”
I’m generally the one defending Tesla in these threads but on Waymo’s defence; the remote operators aren’t actually controlling the car. Instead when faced with a challenging situation the car “calls home” for assistance basically asking a human to take a look at the situation and help it to decide what to do. This might be a car partially blocking the lane of traffic cones placed in a weird manner so the car justs asks for assurance that it’s okay to proceed. In the most difficult situations the remote operator can suggest a route for the vehicle to take but the decision on what to do is ultimately on the vehicle itself.
The author is very well aware of this dilemma, in fact that topic is the center of his article, and he is making some good points about why real autonomous driving might still take a long time until achieved.
Besides that the cars are constantly getting around without a designated driver. For the technology and for the industry that is a huge breakthrough.
And he forgets to mention the precise mapping required too. He also left out the terrible experiences Waymo has had with revoked permits, cars disabled by traffic cones, and multiple traffic stopping glitches where intersections were blocked for hours.
Yeah but the waymo ceo doesn’t shitpost on Twitter so people here don’t get front page hyped up stories every single time things aren’t perfect
I’m making a prediction right now that real self driving will eventually rely on people from impoverished countries remotely operating the cars of wealthier countries. Sort of like how AI training data is combed through.
The author addresses this.
He notes Tesla drivers are expected to be able to intervene at any time. Both companies rely on human intervention. But his argument is Tesla doesn’t have the infrastructure to learn from all its data with the accuracy necessary to account for edge cases, which are mortally important for safety.
Tesla, per the author, will need to go through exactly the staging Waymo is doing to move to driverless, but is years behind. That’s the argument.
Elon ripped out the LiDAR, I don’t have any faith at all in Tesla’s FSD.
Elon ripped out the LiDAR
No he didn’t…He never even installed it in the first place.
I had to look this up, but you’re mostly right. They never really did use LiDAR. They did use other types of radar, which were removed or disabled. In any case, they (Elon) asserted that neither radar nor LiDAR was really necessary.
However, that was mostly a couple years ago. In the past month or two they actually have begun buying up tons of LiDAR.
Also, they were sued over FSD in court and their lawyers are now arguing that customers should’ve known that cars without LiDAR are not capable of reliable FSD.
But the self driving taxi fleet is coming anytime now /s
Humans can drive just fine without lidar aswell. Road infrastructure is designed for vision. The car not being able to see is not the issue. It’s teaching the car to understand what it sees and how to deal with it. Lidar doesn’t help you solve this issue.
Unlike human eyes Tesla’s inconveniently do not come with a supercomputer installed that is able to interpret the optical data reliably. With the compute power we have available Radar based navigation is the only one that produces reliably safe results.
It depends on your definition of “super computer”, it used to be any computer with performance over 1 gigaflop, which today would probably include most smart phones and the built in car computer in the Tesla.
But regardless of semantics, I think your point holds, humans are a special case and computers can’t do that yet.
Bro he was talking about your brain And there is no supercomputer on earth able to even approach it, and regardless supercomputer is a rather relative term tbh
Bro he was talking about your brain
Yeah, I caught that… Obviously.
and regardless supercomputer is a rather relative term tbh
That was essentially my point. Keep up.
Atleast Model S and X with hardware 4 do have radars in them.
Huh, guess they came around in the end then.
Except we don’t have reliable radar navigation, what are you smoking? Are you just making things up you think should be true?
aswell
Never a word, my dude.
I’ll try to remember that!
Me aswell.
Yeah Waymo has been silently ticking away over here for years. On the east side they are all over the place. It will take longer to get to freeway speeds but I think Waymo’s approach is far safer. But fuck Google too
Google En Passat
Jesus Fucking Christ what are you fucking stupid? Read the god damn pinned mod comment on every post on r/chessbegginers, read the god damn wiki, read the god damn info button that pops up on chess.c0m, here’s a thought just google it your god damn self. What do you think you’re the first person in fucking history to experience this “weird pawn move?” You must be fucking stupid because it was only invented back in 1561. But I’m sure you thought “oh wow I know chess.c0m is a company valued in the hundreds of millions but I’m sure me, 100 ELO shit tier chess beginner, has found a bug in their program.” It boggles my god damn mind that you just blindly post your stupid fucking questions on reddit without trying to research them first. Because you must be the first person in fucking history to ever experience a problem, and logically reddit, the source of all fucking factual information, is the only god damn place you can look for an answer. So here’s a fucking thought the next time you’re about to make a god damn post stop and google e-n p-a-s-s-a-n-t.
Lol. Google en passat
Google ein Passat
Holy hell
Copypasta
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Holy hell
I used to be so excited for self driving cars, but my naive younger self assumed they’d actually make sure they’re safe before putting them on public roads.
I was wrong.
What’s a few 100,000 deaths compared to progress?
/s
We’re getting those American robot cars
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They both suck and Waymo’s has a whole ass sensor thingie on the roof. So it’s insane that Tesla’s is even legal given that they rely entirely on cameras and fate.
And Cruise is playing bumper cars
More like GTA
Waymo is literally being investigated for self-driving incidents lol… They’ve also only been able to operate in a small area. I wouldn’t really call that chess.
I’m starting to get the feeling that “X is playing chess while Y is playing checkers” is an indicator species for a terrible take.
Much like everytime you see “nothing burger”
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Am I remembering correctly that Tesla removed sensors for self driving?
Yuuup. Muskrat decided LiDAR was too expensive to include in every vehicle and scrapped it. Even disabled the sensors on the cars that have it.
My vacuum has LiDAR. That man is a cheap idiot.
The LiDAR you have on your vacuum isn’t going to cut it as a safety relevant component onboard your car. Automotive-grade LiDAR are on another price range. Development for such sensors is quoted separately from the part price, and it costs millions of $.
The LiDAR you have on your vacuum isn’t going to cut it as a safety relevant component onboard your car. Automotive-grade LiDAR are on another price range. Development for such sensors is quoted separately from the part price, and it costs millions of $.
Obviously, but my Ford Escape PHEV also has LiDAR and, despite being the highest trim level, cost FAR less than a Tesla. It doesn’t do FSD, obviously, but it still has LiDAR. And radar. And will do level 2 self driving enough that if I’m driving in traffic I’m more managing the car than driving it.
There is zero good excuse for not including LiDAR in Teslas.
There is a reason. It’s just not a good one. It’s profit.
I don’t believe Tesla ever intended on having full self driving. That’s just an idea Musk sold people to boost confidence in the company. The promise sold vehicles and boosted stock value, making Musk a shit load of money.
What difference would it make if they were fully devoted to FSD with the best technology they could get? It still wouldn’t work perfectly and wouldn’t be allowed alone everywhere probably, and they would have made less profit during that period. In what time frame would it actually pay back?
I can’t seem to find information about the Ford Escape having a LiDAR, it’s not on the spec. Sheet on Ford’s website and in the news it’s only about prototypes.
I am not saying Teslas should or shouldn’t have LiDARs. I am just curious. I only know about Audi, Mercedes, Honda and Hyundai currently selling cars with LiDAR used for ADAS. They might be more Chinese OEMs selling cars with LiDARs, buy Ford, it surprises me.
I may be wrong then. There are a bunch of sensors above the windshield behind the rearview mirror, it could be that LiDAR isn’t one of them.
Probably cameras and rain sensor :)
When your compensation is based on profit per car, you make strange decisions like removing winker stalks and quality control.
Yes they sure did. I don’t believe any Tesla ever shipped with Lidar, maybe some did. The big thing that they removed/disabled was the radar. They did this because the radar and visual cameras would disagree about where things were. So instead of spending more R&D time to get it right. They just removed the radar and called it solved.
That was just an excuse, they just couldn’t get the parts. Radar is back now.
Chess is a very complex rules game, while Checkers is quite simple. Waymo has a complex approach to self driving:
- Expensive suite of sensors
- High resolution maps of operating areas
- Remote operators standing by
While Teslas approach is simple:
- Capture a bazillion miles of camera footage, feed into AI, profit?
- Unpaid volunteers teach the AI safe driving
- Car has only a basic map for routing, the rest is inferred in real time from cameras
Waymo’s successful approach scales linearly. They have to high-res map every city they want to operate in, and they can gradually bring down the cost of the sensors. They will require fewer remote operator interactions over time.
Teslas success is more difficult, but it scales exponentially. They already produce vehicles at scale and full control over all the equipment on board. The existing fleet would be able to participate as well. If they succeed, they may want to offer buy-backs for customers who didnt buy FSD - the cars would be worth more to Tesla than the owner.
In both checkers and chess, the player gains super powers for reaching the other side of the board. Time will tell who reaches the other side of the board first. They are playing different games on the same board. Okay that’s fair.
Tesla will hit walls with rain and snow. Cameras will fail before other sensors in those conditions.
Radar and Lidar also get a lot of noise from heavy rain or snow. Fog can be just as bad. Some conditions just aren’t safe to drive in, regardless of who’s driving. I don’t think either of them are trying to design a system for those conditions.
On a personal note, I have no interest in getting a ride in a self driving car. I do have an interest in an empty car that can drive itself. Drop myself off at the airport, valet parking downtown, easier to share one car per household, river shuttling, through hike shuttling - I would use it a lot. I understand the more profitable goal is taxi services, but I don’t want that. So in my narrow use case, I hope Tesla succeeds since that approach can be used on personal vehicles anywhere while Waymo is strictly city taxis, which I don’t use.
The USS they took out of Teslas were at least a second measurement system.
Wavelengths with decent water transmitability exist.
Sound and light don’t propagate well through changes in media. The reason rainbows exist is because light does not travel in a straight line through drops of water, across the full spectrum. Radar is used to sense how hard it’s raining so it obviously gets returns from rain (and through it). But it will depend on the processing they do from the sensors. But just so we’re clear, cameras also work in the rain and snow. I don’t think one is clearly better than others.
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Rapid deployment and iteration belongs on race tracks, not the public road.
And still Mercedes is the car company with the highest autonomy level of any car manufacturer. And no one talks about that.
Mercedes Drive Pilot only works on a handful of hand-picked highways is California and Nevada. It must have a car in front of it to follow. It can’t go over 40mph. It can’t navigate thru interchanges. It can’t be used in inclement weather. It doesn’t work around flashing lights. It doesn’t work on construction sites. It doesn’t work in night time. It cannot change lanes and it doesn’t work on roads without lane markings.
It’s effectively a train except train can take you to more places. Also, it must have a driver who can take over when needed. That’s level 3 self driving. Waymo is level 4.
Here’s what happens when you put Mercedes Driver Assist (Not Drive Pilot) against Tesla’s FSD. Tl;dw: It’s completely useless.
Tesla ACC (Autopilot my ass) manages to ‘drive’ 130km/h, while requiring you jerk the wheel every few seconds. The 2015 VW Passat I used to drive supported 160km/h and I didn’t have to jerk the dam steering wheel. Granted it did not have lane assist (Autopilot in Teslaspeak). Still, claiming a Mercedes not doing at least 220km/h using assisted driving is just silly.
One more anecdote: couple of weeks ago I rented a current Audi A4, the ‘Autopilot’ took the car to 244km/h - I decided to not push it further even though it was legal. That was just an A4!
Teslas add dangerous because the car - very much like the company CEO - is claiming it can do things which it ultimately can’t. When it fails and the and you, the driver, can’t compensate you’re on the newspaper.
You don’t need to “jerk” the wheel. You only need to touch it gently. This is because level 2 is “hands on” system. Allegedly though even this will be going away with version 12.4 and from there on it’s only the cabin camera that’s monitoring you. It’s debateable wether this is a good thing or not. Makes it easier to abuse the system.
No one is making any claims about how fast Mercedes Drive Pilot should go. Your accusation is disingenuous. I’m simply stating that it can’t go over 40mph. That’s pretty slow for a vehicle that can drive autonomously only on highways.
You don’t need to “jerk” the wheel.
Yes, you do. One of the reasons I didn’t end up buying a Tesla.
You only need to touch it gently.
That’s true for any other manufacture but Tesla. Stop lying.
For people not familiar with the wheel-jerk required by Teslas:
This is because level 2 is “hands on” system.
No, it’s because it’s a Tesla. Other manufacturers, including Mercedes, have sensors in the steering wheel so “You only need to touch it gently.”. Again on (all) others, not Teslas.
" only the cabin camera that’s monitoring you."
Some current cars do have (Lidar based?) driver monitoring as this is set to become law. The car checks whether you pay (enough) attention. Test drive a GWM Ora - it’s fucking annoying. No worries though, this will never work properly in a Tesla.
No one is making any claims about how fast Mercedes Drive Pilot should go. (…) I’m simply stating that it can’t go over 40mph.
Please re-read this, does it still make sense to you?
I could return the accusation of being disingenuous but that falls short as claiming a Mercedes does 64 on ACC/assited driving is just fucking stupid. 64 is to slow to be on the Autobahn.
Okay well I was wrong about having to turn the wheel. I’m not lying - I just didn’t know. I’ve watched hours and hours of content of people driving with FSD and I haven’t ever seen them having to do that so I didn’t know it was a thing.
Anyway, that’s allegedly going away with V12.4
Then you should test drive some EVs yourself - it is very eye-opening. I also recommend watching YT channels that test different brands and aren’t caught in the fanboy trap.
Why do you need to be such a dick about it? Just because I’m interested in self-driving technology doesn’t mean I’m a Tesla fanboy. That’s ad-hominem. No other brand (that I know of) makes a car you can buy that’s capable of doing what Tesla’s FSD can do. That’s why it’s the brand I most pay attention to. If you think there’s some other manufacturer I should look into more closely then by all means link me a video about it.
I already daily drive my dream car and the “smartest” feature it has is anti-lock brakes. While it would be nice to test drive a modern EV I however have no interest in buying one nor could I even afford it.
Because it’s insanely restrictive and can’t be used by most people or in most situations. It’s little more than a marketing ploy.
I drove a hyundai recently which had multiple levels of lane assist and it drove for miles unassistated. Jarring experience, it didnt meet intersections or anything but kept to the road and speed I wanted.
Did not handle off ramps well, drove past them as needed then tried to course correct onto them very late.
I just watched a video of one of these going down the wrong side of the road yesterday
Maybe they accidentally outsourced one of the remote drivers from the UK
We should abandon self driving cars and instead make the roads more safe and provide multi modal transportation options like trains.
I wonder if they’ve thought about having an extra long car, like I’m talking fits nearly 100 people. That way instead of having 25 cars self driving, you could have 1 driver.
You could even put it on tracks so you don’t need to worry about steering. Just go /stop.
Brb gonna patent something…
