On one hand, you have people who are mostly comfortable with letting Palestinians die. On the other, people who openly talk about nuking them.
You have a group of people who may be willing to throw minorities under the bus. And you have another group that is waiting for the opportunity to do so and make it law.
Both choices are terrible, I agree, but there is one that is a clear better over the other. It sucks, but you have to accept that it’s the way it is for now and you are not going to pull some third party out of your ass. That is going to have to wait for now. You have to make a decision between the lesser of two evils.
I’m counting on you, Americans. As a trans woman from a European country which political climate is heavily influenced by yours, I can quite confidently say that my rights are in your hands.
Quite frankly, I can’t think of a more terrifying thought, but it is what it is.
Don’t fuck this up. Please.
And they kept on voting blue and both parties kept on getting more reactionary and moving the center to the right ad infimum…
Yes, because our only two choices are to vote and not vote. Once we vote we can’t protest, spread information, build dual power structures, try to create progressive candidates, or do any other organizational efforts to try to shift the available candidates.
You get only one progressive action every 4 years.
/s
Who talked about action outside of voting? That goes without saying lol. You probably don’t want to understand what I mean, third party voting that is.
Okay, let’s say there’s only two parties A and B. In a first pass the post system. These are the only two parties that matter. If a 3rd party C is less popular than A or B, they don’t stand a chance. Also people whos preferences are in order C, B, then A. If they vote for C, they are voting for a candidate that cannot possibly win. They are effectively taking votes away from B giving A a higher chance to win.
This sucks but it is reality.
The only way to get C voted in is for C to become more popular than A or B. There is no amount of voting or not voting that can do this. Only organizing as I have mentioned before.
So to maximize your desired outcomes, you need to vote B so that A has less of a chance to win.
To put this in another way. By not voting or voting for C you are by consequence, increasing the probability your least desirable outcome comes to pass.
Again, this sucks and I wish it weren’t the case.
Now if you personally don’t want to vote, or you want to vote for C. That’s fine. It’s a free country. Please stop trying to make it sound like it’s some grand plan to solve all of the systemic problems we have. Because the outcome of going down this path is that A will have a higher probability of getting into power, and there will be consequences to that.
This is such childish logic lol. Why do you explain the most obvious argument ever to me? Do you think this hasn’t crossed my mind? It’s what every democrat voter says. It’s in fact the only argument in favour of the democrats I’ve been hearing for this election.
The truth however is that there comes a point when the lesser evil becomes evil. Just because party A is more evil, doesn’t take away from the fact that B is evil as well. It sucks to admit this, doesn’t it? So there are only two alternatives for this one. You either think that the biggest genocide and humanitarian crisis of the 21st century - for which they are as much responsible as Israel is - has been handled even remotely adequately by the Democrats or you don’t think it’s such a big deal to begin with. So which is it?
Do you have a conscience? Do you want to make them realize their atrocious actions have consequences? Or will you give them the vote that says I’m still ok with what you do? I don’t care about strategies, my votes are only based on my beliefs and who matches them the most.
Sorry about necroing this, I needed a break from the socials, but I really wanted to reply to you.
Why do you explain the most obvious argument ever to me?
I don’t know what you know or don’t know. I am happy you are well educated.
The truth however is that there comes a point when the lesser evil becomes evil.
See here is a good point from you which I missed in my original writeup. If the outcomes of both A and B are the same, then you should vote for C. The issue is that this almost never happens. Like we would need to have Trump vs a clone of Trump that is 5 minutes old. The issue with your “evil” argument is that what can be considered evil is very broad. Take this hypothetical:
Both A and B have supported genocide like Biden. A says they love it, they want to do more of it, they want to turn the US of A into the US of Genocide. B says that they regret it and that it was a bad move, and they wont do it again.
In this case, both A and B have supported genocide and are their for are both Evil. Even so, if you vote for C the outcome is that A is more likely to be elected. By your own definition, voting for C is an evil act.
Do you have a conscience? Do you want to make them realize their atrocious actions have consequences?
Are good things good and bad things bad? Yes. I feel like we are aligned in values, we just disagree about how to go about it.
Or will you give them the vote that says I’m still ok with what you do?
As we have discussed most voting is not approval it is picking the lesser of two evils. Most elections have been between a shit sandwich and a poop cupcake. Seems this election will be about the same.
I don’t care about strategies, my votes are only based on my beliefs and who matches them the most.
Ok great, then don’t comment. Your mad at me because you don’t have a strategy but want seem clever and make comments like “And they kept on voting blue and both parties kept on getting more reactionary and moving the center to the right ad infimum…”, and then you say your going to vote 3rd party, witch is against your own interests probably (Maybe your a Trumper). Then you get mad at me for explain basic voting strategy. I’m just trying to understand what happening and trying to help others who might not understand how the system works.
If you want to vote based on feelings and not outcomes, fine, keep it to yourself.
This is such a disappointing take honestly. Using A and B parties to make your argument sound more logical than it is. The Democrats have not in any shape or form regretted their actions, nor are they denouncing Israel and Netanyahu, Biden made his unwavering support for them abundantly clear after the ICC arrest warrant for him.
By my own definition voting C is definitely not an evil act, what kind of twisted logic is this? I don’t want to vote for a party that fully supports a genocide and has done nothing to reverse republican, neoliberal policies. I’m voting for someone that I believe will fix things and I think everyone should do the same if we want to see change at some point.
Like I’ve already said about the poopcake and shit sandwich and the lesser of two evils(you kind of say it yourself), at some point, both parties are so indistinguishable and so very far away from any ideal and vision that I have for the world, that my conscience doesn’t allow me to vote for them. Both are genocidal, both are neoliberal, dismantling the welfare state and increasing exponentially the profits of the 1%. If you vote for the lesser evil, it just means that you think one is at least a little bit satisfactory, to which I couldn’t be more opposed.
Why should I keep to myself my opinions on voting? Do you not like other people expressing their opinions and throwing shade on your beloved democrats? Why shouldn’t more people realize that both are extremely evil and bad and shouldn’t be supported? I am not mad because I don’t have a strategy, I am mad that people still support people committing and funding genocides first and foremost. I don’t get mad at your kindergarten logic that is the first thing that pops to anyone’s mind when they realize that maybe they shouldn’t vote blue. Why should you try to help others and not me? I’m not confused or mad, I know very well what I am doing.
Btw I explicitly said I am voting based on my beliefs and ideology and you try to reduce my criteria as “feelings”, as if anyone’s voting and beliefs are somehow detached from feelings or that I don’t use logic. Imagine thinking that supporting ideas and values you’ve extensively and carefully talked, read and thought about for years is somehow inferior to your highly sophisticated: blue no matter who.
I’ll say it once again to make it clear: our difference is very simply that you are satisfied with the Democrats in power, while I am not. Any problems that arise are just not a deal-breaker to you, while they very much are to me.
I am disappointing with Lemmy’s population. I would expect all these “Biden is bad in one thing but good in the rest” mentality so advocating to vote for him regardless.
First, the “thing” is not minor thing… is a crucial matter where the life of millions of people are completely dispossessed of protection and justice.
Second; There are third candidates… Of course, they don’t have a chance and it will be, apparently, a waste of a vote… but only for this November elections! But, if a third candidate, with a genuine distinct message, gets 10-15% of the vote, future candidate will see an incentive to be independent in the future too… Gosh, even both Dem and Rep will be more cautions next time around.
The worse we can do, is to vote the same thing over and over, let alone no voting at all. There is nothing more the duo party loves the most! Encourage those alternative voices, the founding will come alone if hope is there… maybe not in 2024 but for midterms and 2028.
Also, I miss some conservative voices in here (and I am not one!)… I bet there are some non-mainstream ones that could greatly benefit Lemmy’s ecosystem too.
It makes little sense to vote third party in your current system. Electoral reform is needed to break the cycle. For example with proportional representation instead of winner takes all.
third parties makes full sense. Of course you have no chance in the next few years but one of two scenarios will happen; 1) the people more and more open up the idea for the 3rd party and use it as a protest vote or 2) one of the duo-party system will try to capitalize on taking those votes by taking their main argument. No third party, no duo-party side has any incentive to remodel at all, they will just wait for the next cycle for their turn and things will continue as is. This is why the US political landscape has corrupted itself to the end.
Voting for someone who is less bad is harm reduction. You can do harm reduction, while loudly proclaiming that it fucking sucks there’s not a better option, and working to provide better options.
I hate Biden. But I hate (and fear) the prospect of a second trump term more.
The 6 Palestinians I know (from protests in the US), 2 in Gaza and 1 in the West Bank they all tell me they could care less Biden vs Trump, But if has to be one… with Trump there is more chances of change in the region, even at the cost of more lives. Besides, it will be far easier to regional countries and the European ones to distance from a link between Trump’s US and Israel.
