• zephyrvs@lemmy.ml
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        1 year ago

        A lot of people are propagandized as fuck (and I do not mean that as an insult on their intelligence or anyting, good propaganda works really well, even on smart people) and I don’t think most of these comments would survive if the posters spent a bit more time thinking about what they’re actually saying.

        • redtea@lemmygrad.ml
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          1 year ago

          Obviously I don’t know everyone’s political histories. But most people around me IRL who supported the idea of going into Iraq and Afghanistan (they were kind of blurred into one conflict) said, ‘never again’ and have been quite anti-war ever since.

          A few of those backtracked and said, ‘well, maybe one more time’ when it came to Libya. Then afterwards, they said, ‘we really mean “never again” this time’.

          But Ukraine has sent almost everyone into a frenzy for war. I had assumed that after Iraq, especially—which exposed the depth of lying that NATO is willing to sink to—that nobody would believe NATO’s version of the truth again. How naive I was.

          I wouldn’t even mind if they (not necessarily Jaysyn, whom I don’t know) still disbelieved Russia’s narrative. In fact, I’d welcome it. A little healthy skepticism would lead to far better politics. All I see is skepticism against Russia but total faith in NATO. Where has critical thinking gone?

          To disbelieve Russia’s narrative only to accept NATO’s? Wtf did I miss? I don’t think gullibility covers it. As you say, it must be constant and clever propaganda. I suppose they have the money for it, considering how much they have to gain if they can beat the drum of war.

          Edit: grammar

          • zephyrvs@lemmy.ml
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            1 year ago

            I’m in the same boat as you are. What has me really shocked is how my European friends are in full “support the troops” mode now. What’s really surprising is how all their arguments almost always follow the same simplistic dualist thinking (“so you think Ukraine should just give up?”, “but it’s a democracy”, “but pUtLeR will take Poland next”, “you’re just spurting Russian propaganda”) and how people basically ignore all of your arguments just to call you a supporter of an “evil imperialist terror regime”.

            I wish people would’ve learned their lesson by abandoning the media that’s obviously been lying to everyone for the past decades.

            • ☭ Blursty ☭@lemmygrad.ml
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              1 year ago

              What’s striking about it is how they have no comebacks, they have no arguments at all expect name-calling. You can show them all the evidence in the world and they’ll just call you names. Simple minded morons. Normies.

              • zephyrvs@lemmy.ml
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                1 year ago

                Nah, no need for name calling. It’s just effective propaganda and it works best on normies.

              • stephen01king@lemmy.zip
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                1 year ago

                Where’s your evidence for people being ethnically cleansed in Ukraine, that Russia only invaded to free these people, and that they managed to free millions of people from ethnic cleansing? Show several sources for each claim, please.

                  • stephen01king@lemmy.zip
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                    1 year ago
                    1. Enforcing the use of Ukrainian languange for official use, while not a wholly positive thing, is not ethnic cleansing.

                    2. The YouTube video doesn’t even have complete captioning. It suspiciously only captions the part that said things about filtration of Ukrainian citizens in Russian controlled regions. Not sure how much I trust it. The whole article also only refers to ‘planned’ or ‘proposed’ internment of Ukrainian with the major source being that untrustworthy YouTube video. Reference 5 no longer exists, while reference 6 doesn’t load for me. Reference 2 only refers to land rewards to be given to soldiers, nothing about ethnic cleansing.

                    3. The guy isn’t even a politician. What would anything he says prove the Ukrainian government is participating in ethnic cleansing? Also, someone else in the thread translated it as to punish those who have committed crimes in territories that were occupied by Russia. Which one is more accurate?

                    4. No sources provided. A tweet doesn’t mean anything without proper sources. It’s even showing a map from a 2003 survey while talking about Maidan Coup in 2014. Why would you trust someone that barely care about being accurate?

                    5. The article is about overuse of force and illegal methods from both sides of the Ukrainian SBU and pro-Russian separatist. It focuses mostly on what the Ukrainians did. It’s bad, very bad, but none of them suggests ethnic cleansing like what you say. They are using illegal means to fight the war, which both sides committed. Neither side is morally above the other, so why would this be justification for Russia’s invasion?

                    6. No actual proof that Ukraine bombed the residential neighbourhood. The article claims Ukraine bombed it’s residents to place blame on Russia. That’s the most conspiratorial accusation I’ve heard yet. Since the claim is from the separatist side, I’d be stupid to trust such a claim.

                    7. You sure that’s an apartment complex? Some are claiming it’s actually a police station. Maybe you can try and verify it first since the video doesn’t really provide any proof other than what it said.

                    Finally, still no proof Ukraine is performing ethnic cleansing, nor that Russia liberated millions from ethnic cleansing to justify their invasion.

            • redtea@lemmygrad.ml
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              1 year ago

              European friends are in full “support the troops” mode now

              After laughing at USians for nigh on twenty years while saying, ‘those guys never learn their lesson, they love guns and spend ridiculous amounts of money on wars of their own making yet they can’t afford schools or hospitals.’ Turns out, Europeans aren’t so exceptional; when it comes to the crunch, all it takes is one month of news cycle and many people are happy to let themselves be fooled, once, twice, as many times as it takes. For shame.

              Who knew this guy was an inspiring philosopher. Tbf to most irl people I know, most people are just aghast at the war and would like it to stop. Their opinion on NATO hasn’t changed; they just believe what NATO and it’s mouthpieces say about Russia.

      • lemmyshmemmy@lemmy.world
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        1 year ago

        How is this different from someone saying “let’s just give Hitler Poland”

        Are you saying the Ukrainians should stop fighting? Is that what you would do if someone invaded your home?

        • zephyrvs@lemmy.ml
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          1 year ago

          This rhetoric reminds of the German military’s questioning when pacifists refused mandatory military service. “You say you’re against violence but what if someone threatened your family and you had a gun?” Great intellectual company you’re keeping here.

          • stephen01king@lemmy.zip
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            1 year ago

            How does mandatory military service relate to helping to fund another country from an invading force?

            Should the other European nations not fight against the Nazis when they invaded other countries in order to not ‘prolong’ the war?

            • zephyrvs@lemmy.ml
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              1 year ago

              I’m comparing rhetorics. Read the post I was replying to and then mine again, please.

          • DaDaDrood@feddit.nl
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            1 year ago

            However it’s not rhetoric. It’s cold hard history. Allowing a fascist dictator to invade a sovereign country led to WW2.

    • krzschlss@kbin.social
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      1 year ago

      And one of the worst uses of the 2 brain cells you have left. Your tax dollars are the driving force for war and misery across the globe for decades now, the only difference is that your government isn’t hiding it anymore, because they know now that you zombies will give all your money for some entertainment on the news after shooting up a school.

      • fiah@discuss.tchncs.de
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        1 year ago

        if you want to call attention to the fucked up shit that the USA and NATO has done in the last couple of decades, comparing it with supplying weapons to a democracy to defend itself against an invading bunch of fascist war criminals is definitely NOT helping your case

        edit: I have been informed that Ukraine isn’t perfect, and that therefor the invasion and the long list of war crimes perpetrated by the invaders are justified

        • zephyrvs@lemmy.ml
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          1 year ago

          A democracy that recently announced that it postponed elections, a year after declaring the opposition parties as illegal.

          • DaDaDrood@feddit.nl
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            1 year ago

            You know that postponing elections during a war is : a, fucking logical, because how to fuck are you going to get a representative vote if half of the country has fled or is on the frontline and b, their constitution says there can’t be elections during martial law. source Every fucking pro Russian troll arguments in this thread need to be ousted here before this place gets to be a Russian troll pit as well.

            • zephyrvs@lemmy.ml
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              1 year ago

              Just the reply I was expecting, thanks for walking right into the trap where you conveniently failed to even mention the opposition part.

              And I’m the troll.

              Edit:

              Even Foreign Policy isn’t as one-sided as you are in their portrayal of the situation:

              Concern over the decision to postpone Ukraine’s elections has come from both Ukraine’s friends and foes. […] On the other hand, PACE President Tiny Kox said that while he recognizes the enormity of the struggle Ukraine faces, the country must uphold its obligations under international agreements to hold elections. “It is up to [Ukraine] how to solve this challenge,” he told a Council of Europe summit in May, adding that “there will be no complaints against Ukraine if the elections are not ideal. But if you do not hold elections, then everyone will have questions about you … without elections, democracy is impossible.”

              Unless PACE is also just a Russian troll. 🤡

              But indeed, elections during war/state of emergency are unconstitutional and highly impractible. Still funny you dodged the opposition point I made.

              • DaDaDrood@feddit.nl
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                1 year ago

                Untill you give me a source that states that the opposition isn’t able to function, I’m going to treat that part of your argument as blatant misinformation.

                • Pili@lemmygrad.ml
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                  1 year ago

                  It’s crazy how some people can have such strong opinions about this conflict while being so uninformed at the same time.

                  • DaDaDrood@feddit.nl
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                    1 year ago

                    The first one that dies in a war is the truth. Every party tries to steer the narrative. It’s hard to keep a neutral stance. Fact is that Russia invaded a sovereign country under the false pretenses of ‘denazification’ and ‘military operation’. No Ukraine is not a shining beacon of democracy. Yes they were open for nato membership, yes US politics was heavily involved, and no their special treaty with Russia to not do so does not fucking matter because Russia already invaded Ukraine in 2014 making that treaty void. If Russia wants peace, all they need to do is leave Ukraine, super simple. We all know that won’t happen because Putin’s small dick ego can’t handle that.

                • zephyrvs@lemmy.ml
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                  1 year ago

                  At least you’re open about your complete lack of awareness of this war. It’s shocking you’re even participating in this discussion though. The arrogance of offloading basic research of topics from a year ago to someone else to prove that I’m not spreading misinformation is quite something though.

                  Ukraine has had to take extraordinary measures to fight Russia’s invasion. Among them, the government has consolidated the country’s television outlets and dissolved rival political parties.

                  Source is NPR: https://www.npr.org/2022/07/08/1110577439/zelenskyy-has-consolidated-ukraines-tv-outlets-and-dissolved-rival-political-par

                  • DaDaDrood@feddit.nl
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                    1 year ago

                    Blocking opposition parties is not pretty. Not all opposition parties were blocked tough, only the ones with strong ties to Russia. source

    • zephyrvs@lemmy.ml
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      1 year ago

      Who doesn’t like their tax dollars being spent on killing people instead of socialist stuff like healthcare, education, social workers and government services that actually serve citizens.

      • anewbeginning@lemmy.world
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        1 year ago

        So, in your mind, helping to prevent civilians from dying in a war zone and stopping countries being taken over by foreign powers to be exploited is not a worthy humanitarian effort?

        • zephyrvs@lemmy.ml
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          1 year ago

          European countries are taking somewhat decent care of Ukrainian refugees, which can’t be said for refugees that aren’t white skinned.

          And did you just collate military equipment with a humanitarian effort or am misreading that?

          I’m in full support of any real humanitarian aid possible: Support their wounded and sick, support their people with basic needs (generators/energy, food, water, clothing, temporary housing, psych support etc).

          Sometimes I’m really surprised at some of these questions you people come up with.

          Edit: Typo.

          • barsoap@lemm.ee
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            1 year ago

            The main difference between Ukrainian refugees and what we usually get is that Ukrainians are, without exception, well-educated enough to start working right away, and not just in unskilled low-income jobs. Compare that with, say, Somalis with virtually no education, and not even able to sit through a class because they never got accustomed to as kids, then competing with natives for a very limited number of those low-income jobs. That’s why Ukrainians get working permits straight away while we’d rather pay welfare for the Somalis until they’re ready.

            I don’t know what it is with Seppos and making everything about race. There’s actual fucking issues with integrating people from non-developed countries that are completely absent in the case of Ukraine. Ukraine may be piss-poor, yes, but its fundamentals are solid, quite a bit better than Romania and Bulgaria even I’d say and those are EU members.

            EDIT: While PISA numbers are to be taken with a whole salt shaker as measuring good education is notoriously difficult (see “teach the test”) Ukraine outranks Greece across the disciplines. More or less head-to head with Italy.

            • zephyrvs@lemmy.ml
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              1 year ago

              I was talking about the way they were treated, not which refugee is the better worker drone.

              • barsoap@lemm.ee
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                1 year ago

                Ukrainians don’t burn their passports and refuse to aid in their identification, if that’s what you’re alluding to because that’s the kind of stuff gets you shitcanned in the “You can stay in a camp with full board and meagre pocket money and leave the country at any time but forget starting a life here” way, as the only reason to do that is if you don’t actually qualify for refugee status or asylum. But, again, nothing to do with race.

          • lemmyshmemmy@lemmy.world
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            1 year ago

            Europe has taken in millions of non-white refugees and taken great care of them. How many have Russia and china taken in? India? Brazil?

            • zephyrvs@lemmy.ml
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              1 year ago

              Look it up. I’m not your personal researcher, sorry. I’m happy to provide sources to backup claims I’ve brought up myself.

              I never compared Europe to other nations in terms of harboring refugees and I didn’t even imply that Europe hasn’t been taking in refugees. I wish you’d spend a bit more time reading and understanding what people are writing instead of just coming up with cheap rhetorical or whataboutism questions.

              • lemmyshmemmy@lemmy.world
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                1 year ago

                My point is people to want to go there. They want to go to Europe because they’ll have good opportunities and be treated relatively well.

      • UFO@programming.dev
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        1 year ago

        The USA could afford what’s being provided to Ukraine and socialized benefits. But chooses not to because of some dumb reason or another.

          • ZombieTheZombieCat@lemm.ee
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            1 year ago

            It’s more the hypocrisy of some people. The ones who cheer for a huge defense/foreign aid budget year after year no matter who it’s for, and then leave bitchy comments on FB about student loan forgiveness being “unfair” because it uses their tax dollars.

        • zephyrvs@lemmy.ml
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          1 year ago

          I mean, yeah, they have the biggest money printer on the planet, so they could’ve socialized almost everything for their citizens if it didn’t go all into their black budgets, military, bribery and foreign meddling instead, but here they are, 32T in debt, double the debt from 10 years ago, ~100k of debt per person. If that’s not a failed state, I don’t know what is.

          • Rinox@feddit.it
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            1 year ago

            If that’s not a failed state, I don’t know what is.

            You probably don’t know what is it. I mean, look at South Africa for a recent example of a failed state.

            • zephyrvs@lemmy.ml
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              1 year ago

              perhaps do some research on the colonial history of South Africa and Western exploitation and read up on the definition of the term failed state and then look at some news reports regarding the US. I don’t know how some of you people keep on coming up with these cheap rebuttals that you obviously haven’t spent more than a minute of thinking on.

        • krzschlss@kbin.social
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          1 year ago

          To be global authoritarian you have to be the wealthiest and most powerful. And currently there is only one government and its army that takes this title.

        • 133arc585@lemmy.ml
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          1 year ago

          authoritarian threats

          This is a meaningless term used in this way. Every state is authoritarian, by definition. The only “state” that isn’t authoritarian is anarchy, and that’s only not an authoritarian state because it’s not a state. Use more accurate terms if you want to make a point.

          Countries are ignoring global authoritarian threats, by ignoring themselves, but that’s probably not the point you were trying to make.

            • redtea@lemmygrad.ml
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              1 year ago

              rejection of political plurality,

              Like when so much money is funnelled into US politics that only two capitalist ‘parties’ are able to compete, and they have almost identical policies except for some window dressing?

              the use of strong central power to preserve the political status quo,

              Like when the republicans block democrat legislation, even though the democrats are in power?

              and reductions in the rule of law,

              What happened to Roe v Wade and how?

              separation of powers,

              Like when the previous POTUS secures a GOP majority on the Supreme Court, which the current POTUS can’t change?

              and democratic voting.

              Like suppressing votes by criminalising being black and requiring voter ID?

              The problem with the term ‘authoritarian’ is that it’s either meaningless and applies to everybody or nobody and is used as a weak rhetorical device, or it’s given some theoretical basis and it applies to every state and is used to shed light on state relations. Either way, it’s not a coherent criticism in an of itself.