“b-but bears are actually dangerous!” Shut the hell up.
People’s safety is more important than people’s feelings.
Indeed. It strikes me as pointlessly gendered. All people, safety is more important than feelings.
you know what else is pointlessly gendered? the patriarchyfeminist messaging has to be gendered because the patriarchy is a gender issue.
that said, feminism is for everybody. liberating women from oppressive structures by nature does the same for men.
If it’s not gendered and is for everybody, that isn’t that just the original statement? That safety is for everybody? That seems rather circular.
But I think I get what you’re saying. We focus on lifting up women, and everyone benefits.
If this weren’t gendered I’m not sure I would connect that this was posted as result of people’s reaction to the bears vs men thing.
The whole thing was meant to be rage bait.
or it’s purposefully gendered in response to the man vs bear thing
Which is also rage bait
Even then it’s contradictory. Men wouldn’t be upset about being chosen over a bear and women wouldn’t be safe if the bear was chosen, so in that specific context it’s nonsensical.
Most bears don’t seek out and attack women, but many men do. One of those happens far more often than the other, and you’re either uninformed or willfully ignorant about that fact.
Yet another exhibit of people not knowing anything about bears. If bears and women had anywhere near the same amount of interactions as men and women, maulings would be up by a percentage with an alarming number of zeroes. This is like the literal equivalent to the Face Eating Leopard Party supporters being surprised that the Leopards are eating their faces.
Physical safety or psychological safety?
Are you really all lives mattering this post rn? God damn dude. I hope every person in your life belittles every problem you personally have by telling you that tons of people have that problem.
BLM, no sarcasm.
all lives matter amirite /s
BLM, no sarcasm.
the bureau of land management is on some shit istg
And all lives matter, right? How else can we commandeer this conversation?
BLM, no sarcasm.
That gives me feelings of “All lives matter” which minimized the issues of black people. Can you explain why this is different?
Except one has built in meaning and the other is a simple meme made by one person with an oversimplified idea used likely to stir up people considering all the discussions happening about bears or whatever.
BLM, no sarcasm.
It’s not, this tread is filled with Incels.
Some people seriously can’t hold any conversation about sexism without introducing the word “incel” for the sake of it.
I wonder, can that be cured?
Found the incel
Got his ass
alright that’s enough for today
I have some extra emotional capacity today so(see edit*) I’ll post some wrong think: but can we stop antagonizing populations that feel disenfranchised by society and therefor giving the truly evil fucks out there an easy population to brainwash and feed extra scummy ideologies to?Young nerdy men who feel excluded from society that dont have any strong female figures in their life are barraged by a constant stream of messaging that could easily be interpreted as “(white) men are evil and the source of all problems with society”
By constantly antagonizing them for not being able to navigate the political nuance of those messages, we give an incredibly easy pathway to the more toxic ideologies that the Tates of the world will pull them into to profit off of them, because they are the only figures who will give them praise and a sense of belonging.
Edit: Its a new day now, and I no longer have the energy. If you want to vent, understanding that venting in this manner will bring about little to no positive change, you do you, I will no longer be responding
can we stop antagonizing populations that feel disenfranchised by society and therefor giving the truly evil fucks out there an easy population to brainwash and feed extra scummy ideologies to?
Young nerdy men who feel excluded from society that dont have any strong female figures in their life are barraged by a constant stream of messaging that could easily be interpreted as “(white) men are evil and the source of all problems with society”
I think it’s a two-pronged problem.
Young men are encouraged to be aggressive, thin-skinned, and superficial. They’re sold this idea of sex as a reward for climbing to the top of some nebulously defined social hierarchy rather than an expression of intimacy with a romantic partner.
Meanwhile, young women are victims of the Madonna/Whore complex, simultaneously expected to be sexual and virginal, model-esque and down-to-earth, your plaything and your mom. They’re this thing men are expected to fight over, but also personally responsible for the drama created by this social expectation.
And so much of this engineered conflict revolves around selling you something. Gym memberships or diet supplements or fashion accessories or self-help classes or luxury status symbols are all supposed to be a thing we can buy into in order to climb the ladder to an ideal romantic life. All to commodify the idea of love.
By constantly antagonizing them for not being able to navigate the political nuance of those messages, we give an incredibly easy pathway to the more toxic ideologies that the Tates of the world will pull them into to profit off of them
Guys like Andrew Tate are ultimately just bullies. And bullying is a tool that one class of people use to force the others to conform and submit. So much of this boils down to Tate inducting new members of his cult of personality by sending older members out to jump them in.
The only real remedy is to shut these guys down. Stand together. Stick up for your friends and neighbors in the face of fascist bullying. Push back.
Man are not evil and I don’t think anyone is making that statement here, but the problem is that we can’t know which men are evil. Of course we should avoid antagonizing them, since, like you said, it often drives young lonely men towards the manosphere, but also men should try actually listening to why most women pick the bear.
I used to actively avoid women out of fear of making them uncomfortable (still do occasionally, when I have a particularly shitty day), I mean like full on 0 eye contact, lotsa distance and god forbid speaking. Being tolled I’m too fucking stupid to understand female issues and tolled that I have it so easy because I can be a literal pig without getting judged did a number on my brain. I mean I get it, women have it much harder, but being completely pushed aside and forced to associate with literal trash, all my efforts made worthless just because women have to put in much more effort, while I only chose to do a bit more. It hurts. When a girl is freaked out and starts running, because I’m taking a similar route to her’s (because I just happened to live in the same direction), I understand her reaction, but it doesn’t change the fact that it makes me wish I didn’t exist, if my fucking existence is a problem in it self. It’s shit like this that makes me wish I was at least trans or something, not born a fucking bogeyman that hurts people by breathing the same air as them.
I’ll still purposely switch to the opposite street if its not very populated and I’m unintentionally following a woman for too many blocks (because we just happen to be going in the same direction). Remember though that the most extreme people are the ones who shout the loudest, most women wont be unempathetic to your struggles, and understand that society has challenges for you as a man that they themselves dont have to experience. You arent a boogeyman, and you and your struggles are valid, dont let shit like the bear meme convince you otherwise
I mean yeah, that was my point. Currently though our messaging is insanely antagonistic and there are a LOT of men without women in their lives who can explain this to them. People dont listen to those antagonizing them, the throw their shields/walls up, and seek those who are friendlier to them, which, in this case would be the manpsphere, posts like this only preach to the choir, and push away the men who need to know why women would choose the bear the most.
It’s even worse, a lot of the posts here are outright refusing to explain anything, or branding them as the problem for not understanding immediately.
It’s so insanely bad it almost feels like an incel psyop at times
These young men can … listen to women??? They don’t need to be spoon fed feminism by friends, there is a ton of information available if they care to learn. The fact that they choose to listen to sexist assholes rather than have their feelings hurt for two seconds is part of the problem dumbass
but the problem is that we can’t know which men are evil.
It’s very much possible with these things called emotional intelligence and empathy. Used in combination they allow you to walk in another’s shoes for just a split second and see where their mind is.
I don’t think that any amount of empathy allows me to know if a stranger is dangerous.
If it’s alexithymia or such I hope you have trusted people in your life you can ask about random people.
On the flipside if that kind of thing is due to being on the schizo spectrum I can say with personal authority that yes it’s very much possible: Figures it’s not that I can’t do it it’s that I had a life-long habit of actively avoiding tuning into random people, the resonance being so strong that their neuroses get me all cramped up and swamped with random shit requiring clean-up after the fact. But deep dives aren’t really necessary for a threat radar what you’re primarily looking for is their attitude towards relating on eye level, whether there’s an inferiority/superiority thing going on.
Not OP, but look, if someone, let’s say a stranger, has nefarious motives, they have an incentive to fake their mannerisms, this means relying on your empathy and social intelligence alone is a mistake since they may be used as a vector of attack.
In order to be safe, one must make sure they are not harmed or endangered in any way, this includes avoiding certain situations with strangers.
Also, don’t just randomly pathologize people just because you don’t understand where they are coming from, even if done with no harm in mind, you will come off as very disrespectful.
yeah this pretty much.
Polarized speech does nothing for anybody. If woman are talking about this bear thing to make a point, i feel like we would be better off actually making sure that people understood that it was about making a point, rather than a literal fucking interpretation of the problem
but no, funny internet points are more important, capitalism ruins everything it fucking touches.
But many do just that, then you focus on the ones that don’t, every cycle. Over and over. You choose what to focus on. Not we as a society, literally you. You choose to engage with that negative part of it and continue to. Nobody is forcing you
These kinds of things are great for letting off steam with friends, but absolutely TERRIBLE at getting a point across to people who dont already know said point
specifically the intent here is to drum up drama, controversy and attention. Which obviously worked, but the problem is that nobody is using it to do something productive with.
Some people are definitely using it to create drama sure, but others are using it to vent, and yet others dont understand why some men wouldnt just try to understand why women would choose the bear… basically its a clusterfuck of a meme
This is so extremely well put.
You do help by expressing things so succinctly
The problem with your logic is it creates a situation where society at large will never talk about this important topic and think about ways to reduce the scope and impact of it.
The sad reality is that men are largely responsible for SA, and saying this is always going to make some men uncomfortable. They’re always going to react to negatively, and people are always going to post what you posted.
I wanted to post something like this but could not write it well. Thanks for posting it.
Yeah, thats why I posted this. I’m having a good day today, and so I was able to find the words that others who’ve been affected by the bear meme struggled to find the words to. If I get some flak for it, I have the emotional space to explain my reasoning
Also known as: can we please stop pushing people into evil echo chambers by “moderating” them through auto ban because opinion we don’t like? Its not only men vs women, it applies to anything slightly divisive.
We wouldn’t need the super thick skin that is needed now if we hadn’t banned all the people back in the day for merely disagreeing. They went to more evil places and now, consequently, are more evil. We are kinda reaping what we sowed
L M A O white nerdy young men are not the perfect angels you think, I have multiple friends who were sexually assaulted by such people
Don’t forget the other side, I’ve seen some of the discussions around this by women turn really TERFy. Both sides of this debate are gateways to the Alt right.
Tbh the TERF stuff isnt surprising since a lot of these memes have just a hint of Misandry to them, and when it comes to TERFs, they dont see Trans Women as women, and see them as men, so its moreso their ideas on men that are guiding their ideology, than it is about women
This right here is the reason I still bother to engage people on this topic. The women who honestly believe a bear is less threatening than a random man are a lost cause imo, so my goal is to help men find supportive people and spaces that aren’t dangerous idiots like Tate.
You can be a man without being forced to exist in the manufactured redpill/male feminist dichotomy.
I am a man and I am affected 0% by this meme. This meme was a chance to display some empathy and understand why it might be that the bear analogy strikes a chord with many women.
When I go to the grocery store, do I have to think about being snatched? My privilege affords me the convenience of not worrying about that. Do I need to worry about being sexually assaulted walking home? Statistically, probably not. There are a whole host of problems and horrific fates that befall women disproportionately, and very often at the hands of men.
Why would a woman feel safer with a bear?
The 750,000 black bears of North America kill less than one person per year on the average, while men ages 18-24 are 167 times more likely to kill someone than a black bear.
Most attacks by black bears are defensive reactions to a person who is too close, which is an easy situation to avoid. Injuries from these defensive reactions are usually minor.
https://bear.org/bear-facts/how-dangerous-are-black-bears
Since 1784 there have been 82 fatal human/bear conflicts by wild brown bears in North America. Yellowstone National Park has seen a mere 8 since being established in 1872, which is only one more than the number of people who have died from a falling tree.
https://bearvault.com/bear-attack-statistics/
Seems to me that even I would be safer with a bear than a man. Makes you think, doesn’t it?
This is not antagonizing men. This is important data for men. Do you want to get laid? Understand where women are coming from. Don’t do spooky shit on dates.
Listen, I understand. It’s bad news, but it is what it is. It’s reality. It’s like women saying if you never take a shower or bath in your entire life, a relationship is out of the question.
Downvoted not because it isn’t true, but because they aren’t automatically mutually exclusive and because it is an unnecessary jab at half of the human species. Why are we paying attention to divisive bullshit instead of focusing on things that actually have the potential to help?
Because the solution to women getting assaulted is to make men think about their actions. The post wasn’t anymore divisive than the average black twitter meme. It was a simple tongue in cheek piece about how women have the impossible task of figuring out if a man is going to be their life partner or their rapist & murderer.
to make men think about their actions
Do you not understand that, as a very straight man, I’ve never once even thought about hurting a woman?
It’s absolutely divisive. Stop.
I’ve never once even thought about hurting a woman?
then you’d know it’s not about you. I don’t think women want to potentially be mauled to death by the bear, it’s simply preferable to the horrible shit men do to women with astonishing regularity. kidnapped and raped to death, or kidnapped and raped for decades.
do you need links, to show how unfortunately regular this kind of thing is? because they’ll turn your fucking stomach. just because you’re ignorant about how often it happens doesn’t mean you should take it personally when women make a logical choice. they’re safer with the bear. You’ve never thought about hurting a woman, that’s great, but it doesn’t do shit for the women who have had this shit done to them by men for the history of the species.
It’s absolutely divisive. Stop.
oooOoh poor boy, it hurts your feelings huh? get over yourself.
Is vague with their wording, immediately backpedals to “I dOn’T mEaN aLl MeN”
Shut up
then you’d know it’s not about you.
It absolutely is. You are saying no man, myself included, is safe. That no matter what good we might do individually, we will always be viewed as monsters. Can you not see why men find that hurtful?
It absolutely is. You are saying no man, myself included, is safe. That no matter what good we might do individually, we will always be viewed as monsters. Can you not see why men find that hurtful?
look mate if you want to self identify as a rapist / creep, be my guest. if you want to identify that way and then wonder why people find it creepy, well, I don’t have the crayons.
If you think women assume all men are rapists, you’re wrong. if you think women assume some men are rapist creeps, that would be EXTREMELY RATIONAL. Now, compare those two categories with the number of times a woman has had to worry about being raped by a bear.
Come on, you can do it. Count on your toes if you need to. There we go: it’s none.
So some, vs. None.
Now work it out.
I’m not self identifying as anything. You are saying woman should be more scared of me or any other man. And bears may not rape, but they do other damage.
You are saying woman should be more scared of me or any other man
I mean… the historical record is replete with horrible shit men do to women:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_incidents_of_violence_against_women
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Category:Incidents_of_violence_against_girls
https://www.nativehope.org/missing-and-murdered-indigenous-women-mmiw
https://people.com/crime/gallery-elizabeth-smart-jaycee-dugard-kidnapping-survivors/
https://www.ranker.com/list/famous-serial-killers-of-women/ranker-crime
https://bjs.ojp.gov/content/pub/pdf/fvv.pdf
so you figure it out for yourself mate, I have neither the time nor crayons.
But have you thought about challenging a man who does?
Ah yes, let me open myself up to physical violence because I’m a man and that’s my place in the world.
Shut the fuck up
Are you aware that you get to make that choice and that women don’t?
“Hey, would you rather be alone with a bear or a man?”
“A bear. And you should think about what you’ve done.” "… Huh? "
In reality, it’s not attacking half the human species. It’s actually attacking people who perpetrate SA, and other people who cheerlead for them. One problem is that many men react just the way you reacted. Instead of saying “let’s solve this problem”, you say “quit being so divisive”. Unfortunately, those are your values.
I’m a woman and the same way that women feel about men in this whole meme thing, is the exact same way I feel about women…
I don’t trust women within a hairs inch of my life and I would rather be with a bear than a Woman but I bet you I’ll get super downvoted for this opinion.
My wife shares the same opinion. It’s not something she can discuss in her social circles, but she feels like she’s been backstabbed in more awful ways by her fellow women.
When she gets in that pattern, I try to remind her that people tend to suck and you have to be choosy regardless of gender.
I hear you, but as a dude, I feel like there’s significantly more risk of bodily harm from men than than women. This doesn’t mean women are Nice, just less likely to try to rape or murder someone in an alley :(
dsfgasfsaf
Nope I definitely trust men more than I trust women. I don’t know what part of what I said sounds like that when I said I don’t trust women, not people.
I’ve never been downvoted anywhere for expressing that opinion. Lemmy especially there’s a huge disparity where saying you’d rather be with a bear than a man is unacceptable, but saying you’d rather be with a bear than a woman? A-okay. Source? I’ve said both. Only one was I not attacked for. Guess which?
Seriously, I’ve expressed my trauma regarding men countless times and every time been attacked for it. I’ve expressed my trauma at the hands of women and not a single downvote or attack or disparaging remark any time. Lemmy has a very clear bias.
I wouldn’t have a single problem with men getting upset about this bear thing if they got equally upset when somebody says something similar or worse about women, but they don’t.It’s because nobody wants to talk about trauma at the hands of women… everybody goes extremely, extremely quiet when the topic of the capable violence of women enters the room. I have a personal feeling, as a woman, that if we talk about all of the tools and tricks and things that women do to manipulate and abuse, less women will get away with it, and women don’t want that, so they stay silent in order to enable basically a fucking gang, operating with impunity, in a way as a woman, I kind of feel held hostage at the sleepover if you know what I mean…
IRL, sure, but on Lemmy that’s not what’s happening. If you talk about trauma at the hands of women on Lemmy, you get outpourings of support and people sharing their experiences as well. Which is good. That should be happening everywhere.
The problem is you can’t do the same thing on Lemmy if you were traumatized by men. Instead, you get down voted to hell, get statistics quoted at you as if that’ll magically fix it, and when surprise, still traumatized after the stats, now you must be a misandrist so your trauma is invalid anyway.I was just hoping one place would exist on the internet where men’s and women’s issues could get equal screen time and be respected just as much, but no, the genders have to be treated like sports teams and if you support one apparently you have to hate the other. I just don’t get why people are like this.
Why does it have to be like this? Because men are constantly vilanized as being the violent, manipulative, and exploitative gender. This man and bear thing sums it up pretty well. Women get a free pass to do a lot of stuff, including women rappers admitting publicly to drugging and stealing from men and not facing any real consequences.
Feminism is used as an excuse to push both transphobia and misandry. Like sure there might be feminists out there who actually want equality, and there are plenty of people who do want equality who aren’t calling themselves feminists. That’s not the majority of people calling themselves feminists though. It’s a shame as feminism started out as seeking equality, or at least pushing back against inequality.
Men being hurt by women is not an excuse for men to hurt women in return. It is possible for both groups to acknowledge they’ve been hurt by each other and work toward a solution. Pushing “they hurt me so they deserve to be hurt” helps nobody, especially when both groups are doing it.
That’s what I’m complaining about. This mindset that being hurt by men/women completely absolves you of the responsibility to allow them to feel safe. Any space dominated by women will be filled with “Well men are responsible for the majority of violence and sexual assault so actually you deserve to feel like shit.” every time a man speaks up. Any space dominated by men will be filled with “Well it makes me feel bad when you discuss the repercussions of your trauma so shut the fuck up.” every time a woman speaks up.
We can have a place where both genders can talk freely about the way these things effect them and the changes we need to make to fix them. The issue is people are only pretending to want such a space. What they really want is the other gender to sit down, shut up, and agree with them uncritically. Because in their head they’re definitely in the right and they’d rather not be confronted with alternate viewpoints from people who have lived experiences they’ll never have.Worse, as a trans woman, you’d think people would be more willing to accept our viewpoints because trans people are some of few people who can have both lived experiences. But no, our experiences are only valid if they 100% allign with the men or women we share them with. Otherwise we’re brushed off like somehow our experience doesn’t count because we had the wrong experience to reaffirm their biases.
On Lemmy, dominated by men, when I say I fear women due to my lived childhood experience as a boy, being taken advantage of while I was still too young to fight back, I’m met with outpourings of support. People talk about why “this is why trans people’s life experience matters.” When I mention later in the same conversation that I also fear men due to my lived experience as a woman and not being able to fight back due the the hormonal muscle loss, suddenly, my experiences don’t count anymore. People think they get to pick and choose which of my experiences were valid and valuable and which aren’t based on whatever reaffirms what they already believe. And of course you can bet the exact same thing happens the other way around when I tell the same story to women.I kind of get what you are saying. People want to defend their in-group when it comes under attack even when it doesn’t deserve that defence.
I think such a space as you describe would need to be built upon the understanding that all genders are capable of shitty things and that no person or group of people is perfect. I don’t think we have that in this world. What we have is a world that’s unfair to everyone, and instead of acknowledging that things need to change for everyone, people are instead bickering over who has it worse and who gets the blame. Blaming this group or that group for all the problems that exist.
What we have at the moment is almost a cold war between different groups of people. Some people who only care about women, others who care only about men, and a select few who care equally about both. I am sure there are other situations where this is the case too. This I think is what people are talking about when they mention the culture wars.
I feel like with men it’s usually more physical and with women it’s more social/mental. And physical is way easier to document and make stats out of
With a bear, really ?
You spelled it wrong, the sign should say “Safety is more important than feelings”
Why? The sign seems fine to me.
Because thereal’s version is welcoming and non discriminatory, and the meme is antagonistic by design
Yes, it is antagonistic. But is it bad to be antagonistic to people who think that men’s feelings are more important that women’s safety?
Yeah, ok, with this response and your other one, I’m blocking you now
elaborate?
Everyone’s safety is more important than anyone’s feelings.
yeah this is something I can get behind
You agree with the post, why change it?
To use more inclusive language, of course. That’s what we’re all doing now isn’t it?
Then the post wouldn’t have meaning because that’s a universally agreed upon moral sentiment on its face. The post is targeting people who would rather take offense to recent discourse rather than slowing down and considering how this moral sentiment applies to the situation. Without specifying ‘women’ and ‘men’ the post would not have contextual meaning.
You’re free to make your own ‘inclusive’ meme that states the obvious, but the people this meme is targeted toward would see it as obvious and not consider how it pertains to their behavior.
It has the exact same meaning with the inclusive wording, without being adversarial for absolutely no reason. It would work just as well when said to a man getting butthurt over women choosing the bear.
The wording in the OP is hateful, even if it is saying something morally correct. This is not a “Black Lives Matter” vs “All Lives Matter” situation.
That is exactly the situation. No part of this post is hateful; it’s adversarial because women expressed a justified fear and men just “disagreed” because they don’t like to think about it. The point is to be controversial yet morally correct as a statement. It would absolutely not work just as well if it was inclusive, people would just agree with it and no one would care.
Do you disagree with the statement? It doesn’t sound like you do. What’s the issue? Who is harmed by this post?
So, we should generalize entire groups of people to teach them a lesson. No matter their feelings or the fact that the majority of people in said group are just living their lives. A bunch of bad apples should make and entire group socially responsible.
Got it. 👍
Yes there are too many men who think they live in the 50s and can do whatever they want to woman. If you say ALL men are like that, you’re invalidating the effort of most men trying to be better human beings while being assholes.
If you can’t understand that. You are not looking to make things better, just to throw hate around.
The thing is, I’ve seen statements like this before. Except when I heard it, it was being used to justify ignoring women’s experiences and feelings in regard to things like sexual harassment and feeling unsafe, since that’s “just a feeling” as well. It wasn’t okay then, and it’s not okay the other way around. The truth is that feelings do matter, on both sides. Everyone should feel safe and welcome in their surroundings. And how much so that is, is reflected in how those people feel.
The outcome of men feeling being respected and women feeling safe are not mutually exclusive. The sad part is that someone who is reading this here is far more likely to be an ally than a foe, yet the people who need to hear the intended message the most will most likely never hear it nor be bothered by it. There’s a stick being wedged here that is only meant to divide, and oh my god is it working.
The original post about bears has completely lost all meaning and any semblance of discussion is lost because the metaphor is inflammatory by design - sometimes that’s a good thing, to highlight through absurdity. But metaphors are fragile - if it’s very likely to be misunderstood or offensive, the message is lost in emotion. Personally I think this metaphor is just highly ineffective at getting the message across, as it has driven people who would stand by the original message to the other side due to the many uncharitable interpretations it presents. And among the crowd of reasonable people are those who confirm those interpretations and muddy the water to make women seem like misandrists, and men like sexual assault deniers. This meme is simply terrible and perhaps we can move on to a better version of it that actually gets the message across well, instead of getting people at each other’s throat.
Honestly I am so goddamn tired of this shit, everytime something like the bear question comes up it blatantly tilted in one side or the others favor and dissent is crushed in both sets of spaces and no one learns anything.
Not sure what else this meme is doing other than actively creating a bigger divide between the genders…
Maybe a divide for you, my SO says she’d pick the bear if it wasn’t me. And I don’t blame her.
Instead of arguing the merits of this debate, maybe its worth analyzing your own merits. Men (individually but amongst their peers) should be ashamed that women typically seem to want to pick a bear over themselves, instead of falling further into the rut that pushes everyone - not just women - away from their social circles and friend.
Someone tells you they’d rather be getting mauled by a bear? Take the hint. The divide exists within your head, make friends, be kind, and you’ll find happiness
Edited for individuals to contextualize on their peers instead of generically
Edit edit, I mean go ahead, be reactionary
Men should be ashamed that women typically seem to want to pick a bear over themselves
Shame is an individual thing. Men, plural, is a whole bunch of people. Why should I be ashamed for the actions of people that aren’t me?
…and just to be clear here: I’m not even arguing that we shouldn’t battle this one out between the genders. But collective punishment is against the Geneva convention and I really don’t like to stay quiet when people commit war crimes.
So my initial response was “jesus fuck that’s some unnecessary hyperbole, I get your point but that’s ridiculous”
And then I realized that’s the same response I have with women who pick the bear so
I dunno
Maybe you all suck?
Excuse me?!
The fuck should I be ashamed for?
Why am I responsible for the actions of other men?
Go have your fucking guilt trip if you want to but don’t include me.
Reading comprehension, my apologies for the poor original phrasing, but yes you should be ashamed if you dont get the point.
I’m out of the loop on the bear situation, what happened?
Something about would you feel safer being stalked by a creepy dude or being stalked by a bear in the woods. Both could equally kill you, just one is more likely than the other to actually kill you.
Close, but it’s just “would you rather” with any random man in the woods vs a random bear. No implied creepiness on the man’s part. Just who would you feel more safe knowing one of the two is in the woods.
When people justify racism with statistics: That’s stupid and you’re a bigot
When people justify sexism with statistics: Only one side’s feelings matter! I’m going to post this divisive meme everywhere!1!
Edit Sexists know how to downvote, but not present a logical argument.
Stay tuned for the next “men suck” cycle: ‘toxic masculinity is bad you should express your feelings instead of bottling them’, more after the break
This rage bait is so old the Simpsons parodied it:
“Today’s topic…”
I’m a woman (a trans one if that matters to you) and have experienced sexual assault and domestic violence from both men and women.
I know the point that people are trying to make with the whole bear thing.
But I think the friction comes from women talk about this as a theoretical to make a point, where men are thinking more literally.
And I do belive that no one in there right mind, if actually given this option in real life, would pick a bear (unless maybe it was definitely one of the more harmless species).
Each and every one of us, even those of us that have survived SA, have had countless uneventful interactions with men you don’t know. Even when it’s just one on one. And its mostly normal biases that makes us remember the shitty ones more. And something a lot of people forget is that the vast majority of SA victims already know their assailant, so the idea of a rando assaulting you is even less likely. So yes I would much rather be in the woods with a man, than a wild fucking animal. And if you’re a reasonable person, then you would too.
As a trans woman who has also been sexually assaulted, it has more to do for me with what danger is more real to me. I’ve experienced zero bear attacks. Nobody I know has experienced a bear attack. Why would I fear one? Of course, consciously yeah, I know a bear is dangerous, but I have no real world experience to back that assumption up.
Men though? Yeah, I’ve been sexually assaulted by men. I’ve been physically assaulted by men. I’ve had family and friends who’ve been physically and sexually assaulted by men. That danger is real to me. I know that if a man I don’t know is nearby me he could do those things to me, and I have the real world experience to prove that assumption correct (the assumption that they could, not the assumption that they would.)
Therefore, of course I’m more scared of the man than the bear. And of course I’d choose the bear over the man. I don’t care if it’s the wrong choice, I’ll take my chances to not have to relive that trauma, even if it means risking my life. Not like I’ll have time to regret that decision if the bear decides to kill me. Probably. And most women I know when asked expressed the same sentiment in different words. We’re more scared of men than bears, but that doesn’t mean we literally think men are more dangerous than bears.
Is it the logical choice to pick the bear? Probably not, but humans are not logical creatures. I’d rather make the wrong choice than the scary choice.I’d rather make the wrong choice than the scary choice.
Unrelated to the topic, but this mindset is exactly why far-right movements are getting so strong right now.
I agree. I never said it was a good mindset. Therapy is definitely something we need to learn to deal with this and think logically. The issue is so absurdly many women have been traumatized by men that the mental health support systems would be so overloaded that it’s just a fact that only a miniscule fraction of women would ever be able to receive help, even if we had absolutely perfect support systems.
So the only solution is to prevent them from getting traumatized in the first place. But the entirety of Lemmy seems really resistant to that conversation. Would rather quote statistics about “oh the average man isn’t likely to assault you” than to accept that the ones who do are dealing enough damage that the problem needs to be dealt with regardless of what the average man is doing.
This is a great look into the mindset of someone who’s been through SA. Thanks for sharing.
The point I think a lot of men are trying to make is that: In the same way that somebody who commits SA may have been abused themselves, women who are prejudiced against men create a new victim. Treating a harmless man as worse than a dangerous animal is an experience that most every man goes through and that sucks.
I can understand and sympathize with your position. But it doesn’t absolve you of your behavior. Just like someone who commits SA isn’t off the hook because they were beaten as a child and that screwed them up. I feel for someone who was abused growing up, but they don’t get to throw up their hands and say it’s not their fault they victimize others. Compassion is crucial, but at the end of the day, everyone is responsible for their own actions.
But what’s going on here isn’t something within the control of most people. When you’re abused by somebody you don’t choose to fear those people, you fear them because that’s what your brain is wired to do to avoid repeated trauma. Like I said, therapy is the solution, but only part of the solution. The other part is fixing the issue causing the trauma in the first place. Men aren’t being victimized by the women who fear them, they’re being victimized by the other men who caused that fear.
And I want to be clear, because I’ve realized at this point that this isn’t obvious anymore in today’s world, fear is not an excuse for misandry. At the same time, fear of men is not misandry. Somebody saying they’d rather pick the bear should be met with “oh, we should fix the issue causing them to fear men more than bears,” not “oh, they should fear bears more.”
I also want to be clear that this isn’t even a gendered issue despite the fact that it’s been made into one. A man who’s been abused by women and would rather pick the bear should also be met with compassion and “how can we reduce the number of female abusers?” I’ve actually been abused by women too. In fact, more often than I have men. I want to be clear that even though this discussion has been about men specifically, I feel the exact same way about women. That we still need to be compassionate to their victims and accept that the people who traumatized them are the problem, not their trauma.
Fearing somebody is not an action you perform, it’s a state you’re in.You seem incredibly well adjusted for what you’ve been through and clearly you’ve learned a lot from your life experience. Thanks for laying all that out. It was very insightful. I think we agree on 99% of this. So at the risk of splitting hairs, I’m going to put a magnifying glass on that last 1%.
I think fear absolutely victimizes people. I’ve seen xenophobia and homophobia do plenty of damage. Men are far from a disenfranchised minority and I think the issue of women’s safety is much more pressing than men being treated unfairly in some situations. But it still shouldn’t happen.
You’re right that in a way it’s the fault of the dangerous men who abuse women. But in a way, hypothetically, it’s really the fault of their parents who sexually assaulted them. But in a way it’s the fault of their parents genetics that made them mentally unstable, etc, etc all the way back to the first multicellular organism. This thinking, however true, isn’t very useful. People need to take responsibility for their own actions.
We agree fear is not an excuse for misandry. I don’t think it’s unreasonable for women to fear men after having a traumatic experience. However I can still point out the problem here. I think a good example is the trolley problem. If you pull the lever to only kill one person instead of six, I can both: agree with your decision but also point out that you killed someone. You can argue that’s insensitive to your difficult dilemma, but I think it’s worse to pretend like someone isn’t getting hurt. That one person who died still was a life with people who will mourn them.
I think what’s irking men about this whole bear thing is not that the result is not what they want or even what they expect. It’s that a huge chunk of people seem to not even see it as a problem that most men are being judged for something they have nothing to do with.
I’ve never been shot or held at gunpoint, but I have have the shit kicked out of me. But still if given the option to face a person with a gun and a person with the bare hands. I don’t think I’m going to pick the the guy with a gun.
There’s a serious difference in the level of trauma between these examples, and the level of exposure to the dangers of the counter. Sexual trauma is a hell of a lot more scarring on your psyche than simply being beaten. In addition, at least in the US we’re exposed to gun violence every day as opposed to basically never for bear attacks. Even in other countries with better gun control, you’re dramatically more likely to hear about somebody being shot than you are to hear about somebody being mauled by a bear. Not only that, but it’s really easy to process “get shot, you’re dead.” It’s not as easy to make yourself believe you’re definitely gonna be killed by an animal that has whole guides written on how to survive them.
Those two things combined make your example far from comparable. In addition, I’m not saying in any way that the fear is justified nor that no attempt should be made to fix it, what I’m trying to point out us that people don’t realize how intense a fear it really is when they get offended at people making this choice.Obviously, therapy is important to learning how to handle that fear and think more logically, but if every woman who needs it sought therapy for this, there just aren’t enough therapists in the entire world to handle the load. Not even close. So a bigger part of the solution is, y’know, making sure women aren’t getting traumatized in the first place. But everybody here wants to skip that part for some reason.
Sexual trauma is a hell of a lot more scarring on your psyche than simply being beaten.
Very hard disagree.
You’re free to disagree, but for me and many others, I’ve been through both, and I’m definitely waaaay more scared of being sexually assaulted again than being beaten half to death again. They have very different effects on your psyche. Physical violence I react far more with anger than fear, even if I was terrified in the moment. When it looks like it’s happening again, my brain says “Fight back.” When I’m afraid of sexual trauma being relived, my brain says “Escape, now. Can’t escape? Submit. Maybe that way they won’t kill you too at least.”
How about you Google the man who’s face was eaten by bear and then decide
How about you miss the entire point and get aggressive for no reason?
Seriously, what kind of response to “I’ve been traumatized by men” is “you should traumatized by bears too?”
Yes, this is the correct take.
The bear meme is meant to make men uncomfortable and surprised by how they are seen as a generalization among women. It isn’t meant to be anti-men or anything, it’s just meant to show the lived experience of women to men in a hypothetical absurdity.
The cure to sexism is definitely more sexism.
What part is sexist? There can be no equality if uncomfortable realities are brushed aside, illuminating the very real lived experience that women are constantly wary of the average man allows us to confront said issue. Telling women that they are “wrong” and just need to feel different about the issue just perpetuates this distrust.
Listen to women.
The part where there’s 3.8 billion men on the planet, and although the stats are hard to put together, lots of contradictions, they point to less than 1% of them being incarcerated (for all crime not just crime against women) even vastly exaggerating that to 5% (to account for men not being caught etc) leaves 95% of the general male population being decent and no threat. Blaming men, when men aren’t the issue is sexist. Blaming religion, poor education etc would be less sexist and aimed more towards what the actual issue is and help work towards a cure, man Vs bear does nothing but divide and spread fear. Stats show that black people perform a higher amount of crime than other races, does this mean we should be racist? Does this mean you’d pick a random bear over a random black person? I don’t think it does, because it’s not the colour of their skin, nor is it the apparatus between some bodies legs that defines them. Blaming the wrong thing is sexist, or racist in both these cases. I’m not saying women aren’t walking around terrified, but a lot of that has to do with polar discussion that doesn’t help like man Vs bear telling them they should live in fear and does nothing to help the actual problems. And if you don’t believe that to be true you are part of a much bigger problem humanity is facing, misinformation and fear mongering.
This is just an elaborate “not all men,” and just shuts women up.
You said it yourself accurately, women are walking around terrified. The average woman heavily distrusts the average man. This isn’t a call to demonize men, but to showcase that collective distrust so we can move beyond it.
How many female teachers have been caught fucking their barely pubescent students this year alone so far?
It isn’t a men-women problem. People just suck.
Yes, but divided people == profit?
I don’t disagree that both men and women do heinous things, but women
don’talmost never physically attack or kill a man when he shuns her advances, but men absolutely attack women every day for shunning a man’s advances, and sometimes women get straight up murdered for it.#NotAllMen, but enough men that many women choose the bear.
Statistically the disparity is significant.
It’s a drastic disparity. Men do 80%+ of violent crime, 95% of murders, and 95% of sexual violence, with the caveat that we know, for sure, is severely under reported.
Yet people are entitled to not be prejudiced against for their immutable qualities.
Correct.
Every time a woman gets attacked there is a large contingent of the population who start to blame the fact that they weren’t living under the assumption of being in danger from men. In this post’s comment section you can see people making comments about not carrying a gun, not taking self defense seriously, etc. These are also often people who are in the “not all men” crowd. So women are shit on both for treating men like a danger, while also being shit on for not doing just that. People will also demand that women, in any social environment, discuss the subject in a dispassionate, and clinical, manner, or in a warm and friendly manner, in which the subject, men, are treated with kid gloves. Who gives a shit that this has left the person speaking with life long trauma issues, you better be nice about it, or it’s your fault nothing changes. This is the type of thing that is the problem here. This isn’t the only commonly seen way women are forced into a catch 22 situation. Society has pushed them into an impossible situation where, no matter what they do, they are wrong. I think society, especially men, have to come to terms with just how insanely prolific harassment, and violence, directed at women, primarily from men, is.
Another trend you commonly see, when this topic comes up, is people doing any mental gymnastics possible, to either claim it’s way blown out of proportion, while all people who work in, or study, this subject are pretty much in universal agreement that the reality of it is actually far worse than what we have on record. That, or they cry “but men too” ignoring that men are far less likely to be on the receiving end of this behavior, and also primarily victimized by other men when they are. When I was doing data analysis for the corrections system I found out (through experts on the subject, I didn’t discover this) that, while disparities in antisocial behaviors within different demographics of people based on things like, race/ethnicity/culture/etc., narrow as the economic, and societal status, disparity of that demographic narrows, the same cannot be said for the disparity between men and women. While men of good economic, and societal, standing are less likely to act in antisocial ways over-all, the disparity between them, and women in similar standing, stays roughly the same.
Without society, men in particular, coming to an understanding about this, rather than too just knee-jerk reject it, claiming so many reasons, that seem logical on a very surface level, to “prove” their position, we will never be able to truly begin to tackle the issue at hand. The deepest rooted, worst issues, are between men and women, but men are also the reason for that proportion of violence, and other antisocial behavior, towards men. Where men are more often the victim than women, such as murder, men are also responsible for the vast majority of it. The societal structures that encourage, at least on the environment side, this at a systemic level are also the product of men being largely in control. We have greatest control over the creation of an array of cultures, the most prevalent of which, at the very least, create an environment that allows this continue, sometimes even promoting aspects of it. In order for this to happen men, collectively, are going to have come to terms that the women’s side of this conversation will often have hostility, and many other negative emotions, woven into it, because they are relaying their trauma. While speaking about deeply, personally, emotional things, It is not realistic to expect anything else.
Do we need to start throwing out the stats for how many rapist are men compared to women?
Spoiler alert, most rapist are men and it’s not even close.
Highly unreported numbers when it comes to female rapists, so your numbers might be skewed
Highly unreported numbers for male rapists too, especially since most male victims were raped by men.
Do we need to start throwing out the stats for how many rapist are men compared to women?
Sure, just as long as you define rape in such a way that female-on-male rape actually counts as rape, which it doesn’t in the vast majority of “rape statistics” that get put out. Quote http://time.com/3393442/cdc-rape-numbers :
And now the real surprise: when asked about experiences in the last 12 months, men reported being “made to penetrate”—either by physical force or due to intoxication—at virtually the same rates as women reported rape (both 1.1 percent in 2010, and 1.7 and 1.6 respectively in 2011). In other words, if being made to penetrate someone was counted as rape—and why shouldn’t it be?—then the headlines could have focused on a truly sensational CDC finding: that women rape men as often as men rape women.
Yeah, those are very helpful, minority victims don’t deserve help as we all know.
Would you rather be in the wood with a bear rather than a woman because you fear she could rape you? No? Then what the fuck are you even talking about?
It’s so tiring seeing the men coming in and deliberately misunderstanding what’s being discussed. They will do literally anything, appear dumb as rocks, to not recognize rape culture and admit potentially any fault or responsibility towards it’s continued existence. They take everything personally instead of being able to see that societal problems there are also responsible for helping to fix.
Are we also going to tolerate the same with Islam and terrorism? POC and safety because “crime statistics”? If those are not acceptable because it’s not anyone’s individual responsibility for others in an involuntarily assigned group, why is this ok?
Same arguments, still wrong. Fuck off misogynist.
this comment section has been so enlightening about the makeup of this side of the fediverse. and all i can say is i am so sorry. i always guessed it was a male-heavy makeup but i never thought it would precipitate this badly.
this community usually veers leftist and toward respecting human dignity, but it appears as soon as women express the pain and fear that is forced upon them for merely existing all of that is lost and their comments are getting 30/70 downvoted, even in conversations where folks have already acknowledged the caveat of the importance of non-alienating.
it’s clear there is a lot of work to be done when one of the most progressive communities i have ever followed is so packed with malinformed spite as soon as the subject comes to humans asking for the basic privilege of safety.
Agreed and well said. It’s very disheartening. For me it’s just another example of how pervasive and ingrained the patriarchy and misogyny is.
Here’s the problem with that statement. I agree that there is a problem with men committing rape. However, I (along with most men) have never raped anybody. Furthermore I have not done anything to perpetuate the actions of the minority of men who do commit sex crimes. Therefore I do NOT take responsibility or admit fault for their actions. Saying that men as a whole are the problem is offensive and unhelpful. It’s how random peaceful Muslims feel when conservatives tell them they need to take responsibility for the actions of terrorists and take action to stop terrorists “in their community” like all Muslims are in one big group chat. I would straight up give my life to prevent a woman I don’t know from being raped. Idk what more you want from me.
the difference is that the patriarchy exists and favors men. there is no systematic structure that puts Muslims above others, at the expense of others, in a way that is parallel to what the patriarchy does.
i get what you are saying, and maybe not too long ago i was professing quite similar feelings, but i encourage you to self interrogate how big of a difference that is. truly hope this is helpful.
Men’s mental health is more important than women’s feelings.
