• brrt@sh.itjust.works
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    3 months ago

    I don’t understand what you are getting at. You are either saying that you can predict where a fly is going to go when you set it free or you are saying that a fly has internal agency.

    • UnderpantsWeevil@lemmy.world
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      3 months ago

      You are either saying that you can predict where a fly is going to go when you set it free or you are saying that a fly has internal agency.

      If the fly lacks agency, you would be able to predict its movement given a sufficiently accurate set of information.

      If it has agency, you could not.

      • merc@sh.itjust.works
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        3 months ago

        It’s difficult to predict the path of a leaf floating in the wind, but I don’t think anybody would say a leaf has agency.

        • UnderpantsWeevil@lemmy.world
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          3 months ago

          It’s difficult to predict the path of a leaf floating in the wind

          Orders of magnitude less difficult, as the leaf can’t glean your intent and respond accordingly.

            • UnderpantsWeevil@lemmy.world
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              3 months ago

              That the movement of a leaf in the wind is less complex than the electro-chemical processes of a human brain?

              With enough time and math, certainly.

              • merc@sh.itjust.works
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                3 months ago

                The point is, you were using the point that a fly’s movements were complex to argue that a fly has internal agency. But, a leaf floating on the wind also has complex movements. To me, that makes it seem like complex movements aren’t a solid indicator of agency.

                If you’re now talking about dissection, that’s a whole different argument.

                • UnderpantsWeevil@lemmy.world
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                  3 months ago

                  a fly’s movements were complex to argue that a fly has internal agency

                  A fly has the ability to observe its surroundings and adjust its position in response to outside stimulus. A leaf does not. That, alone, adds a dimension of activity that the first possesses and the second doesn’t.

                  You can argue that the fly is still a deterministic agent, but the ability to observe and respond adds a dimension of activity that’s more complex than a leaf, which can only move based on the surrounding wind currents.

      • brrt@sh.itjust.works
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        3 months ago

        You missed the point while drawing your circular argument.

        Take what you said and replace fly with human. Wait here I’ll do it for you:

        If a human lacks agency, you would be able to predict its movement given a sufficiently accurate set of information.

        If it has agency, you could not.

        Now tell me how you will acquire a sufficiently accurate set of information about a human and its environment to test your hypothesis.

        • UnderpantsWeevil@lemmy.world
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          3 months ago

          Now tell me how you will acquire a sufficiently accurate set of information about a human and its environment to test your hypothesis.

          You can’t. That’s a significant problem of identifying the existence or absence of “Free Will”.