I like to rag on Amazon as much as the next guy here, but this article seems a tad misleading. They do still show up when you plug them in. The article even says they use MTP now instead of functioning as a direct USB mass storage drive, which means you can still plug them into your PC and transfer files though File Explorer. Android handles USB file transfers the same way, and that works fine.
So, basically the whole article is just a complete nothing-burger.
Sounds like a regular internet article to me.
Good call out. Clickbait article.
………. So is there any attempt by Amazon here to limit users transferring their ebooks to their computers?
In short, no.
What’s changed here is now the Kindle and PC will actively communicate with each other during file transfers with MTP instead of the Kindle “pretending” to be a USB flash drive with USB mass storage. There are some important trade-offs that come with the switch to MTP but nothing that will stop you from transferring ebooks to or from a computer.
Nice one thanks for clarifying. Sounds like a relatively minor change?
Pretty minor as long as your computer’s OS supports MTP, which most do, except for MacOS. If you’re a Mac user, you’ll need 3rd party software like Calibre or Android File Transfer for it to show up, but if you’re the kind of person who’s transferring books to and from your Kindle over USB, you’re probably already using Calibre anyway.
Yeah, until they tweak this:
Media Transfer Protocol (MTP) over USB Mapping
The MTP extension defined in this section provides a mapping of WMDRM: Network Devices Protocol messages to the Media Transfer Protocol (MTP). The WMDRM: Network Devices Protocol extension to MTP defines operations that enable DRM-protected content to be securely transmitted from the transmitter to the receiver.
The Kindle doesn’t use Windows Media DRM for its DRM protected ebooks, they use Amazon’s own DRM. Even if they did use WMDRM though, this is just an extension for MTP that would enable it to be used for streaming WMDRM content. It “provides a mapping of WMDRM: Network Devices Protocol messages to the Media Transfer Protocol (MTP)” and that’s necessary because MTP would otherwise not provide the data necessary for for the DRM protected content to play.
There’s still nothing here that would prevent you from copying your own “legitimately obtained” epub files or Amazon-encrypted AZW files to or from your PC.
I see this article is the first result when searching “MTP DRM” on Google though 😉
First step is to make it able to transfer DRM, second is to implement it only allowing DRM.
I don’t think they would invest money into something that they wouldn’t have to change if they didn’t try to get control over your data transfers, and the only logical reason I can see is DRM. They’re expecting a return of investment for every penny they spend.
USB protocol isn’t broken, so why would they change it?
What would be other reasons that make this investment worthwhile to develop their own protocol?
Microsoft’s solution above is tacked-on and inelegant, it’s a bandaid to fix a problem with WMDRM that MTP devices were causing in the first place. MTP wasn’t built for enforcing DRM and and Amazon would just be setting themselves up to face the same issues if that was their goal here. Also, unlike Microsoft, they don’t have the advantage of being the original creators of MTP. If they did want a completely DRM controlled environment, turning the Kindle PC app into something more like iTunes where it’s the only program able to communicate with Kindles would have been a much better first step than implementing an industry standard file transfer protocol. They could have jumped straight to your second step like that.
My best guess as to why they’re making the switch to MTP is because USB Mass Storage currently requires them to maintain a separate partition with a fixed size formatted in
NTFSFAT32 on a Linux-based device just so it can occasionally be exposed to a PC it’s plugged into, and that’s… kinda stupid. MTP provides them the option to just not do all that. MTP is the standard mobile devices use these days, it’s going to be easier and cheaper for them to develop around and they won’t need two different file systems and partitions on one device anymore.Kindles have an NTFS partition? I thought they use FAT32 so they’re compatible with Linux, MacOs and windows.
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Reminder: don’t buy things from Amazon.
Like, anything.
“But fast shipping!” No. Stop. Most places now have pretty good shipping, often for free if you happen to buy a certain amount. It’s OK if the thing comes in 3-5 days and not tomorrow. You will survive.*
*I know there’s a couple of niche cases where some people do need things quick and Amazon serves that purpose. But 99.999% of things are not that.
Kobo and Boox are better at making eReaders anyway.
I never heard of Boox.
I might get the Palma to replace my nearly dead Sony Reader.
Thank you for bringing that brand to my attention.
My kobo Libra 2 is way, way, WAY better than any of the Kindles or nooks I’ve owned. So good.
Edit: idk who Amy is but she doesn’t belong here.
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I totally get that. And I have had that same experience once or twice. I break my own rule on those rare occasions where somehow the thing is only there.
The last time I bought from Amazon that I remember was in 2021 when I was putting together a new keyboard. Somehow they were the only ones that had the key caps I wanted. The only other place I could find them was Alibaba, and the shipping there was going to be literally 2 months according to the site.
But for normal items, I go to the seller as much as possible.*
(*And I know for some sellers it’s actually cheaper for them to use Amazon for shipping. I get it. But also, still, I don’t want to give Bezos money so I avoid it if possible.)
B&H and Home Depot have been two solid services for things they sell. Former is computers and photography. Both of them ship pretty damn fast.
Honestly, what convinced me to start using them was how increasingly difficult it is to get quality items on Amazon. Sifting through garbage gets old fast.
Shout out to B&H. I bought my drone from them, and they offered the same model bundle at a slightly lower price than Amazon and also offered next-day shipping for no charge.
They also have a physical retail store and real live people you can call if you have a question, unlike either winding up talking to a chatbot or being redirected to Mumbai after a 45 minute hold.
I don’t know these guys from a hole in the ground other than that, but they beat Amazon and that was good enough for me.
Agreed, and there’s also the bonus of much less likely to get a counterfeit item.
One thing amazon does that’s really useful is shipping to whole foods where you can pick up your item instead of it coming to your door which is really useful if you know someone will try to look through your mail
Cut Amazon shopping and subscriptions out of my life years ago and haven’t regretted it.
Amazon is slower than pretty much everyone else in Germany, and it’s been like that for literal decades. To get almost universal next-day delivery nation-wide a shop needs to do exactly two things: Have the parcels ready by evening, and not be located in the absolute boondonks (which would mean two-day delivery).
Amazon, unless when ordering via premium shipping (included in prime but not worth it for that), takes days to even pack the parcel. Then they can spend a day or two sending it from one of their logistics centres to the other until handing it over to the actual parcel service.
What they do have going for them is the mindbogglingly huge selection. Pretty much the only upside, if you need five small things from what would be five different stores each having their order minimums for free shipping amazon is the sane choice.
Yeah, I try to avoid Amazon as well, and just cancelling Prime went a long way toward motivating me to shop elsewhere. But we still order from Amazon a fair amount (far less than before we cancelled Prime), it just takes a bit longer.
Counter argument: no.
For sure Amazon is predatory. For sure the services are overpriced. For sure they are killing Mom and Pop stores.
But you know what? I shop there for the same reason I shop at a Meijer or a Target or a Payless. Everything I want, one place, unified customer service, and it just shows up at my door. Probably 80% of my purchases are grocery delivery from Meijer and Amazon for basically everything else. Returns are no questions asked, service is fast, and selection is great, I just try not to buy amazon basics if I can help it.
Shipt, Uber whatever, GrubHub, etc etc delivery services that are supposed to solve the same problem are all fucking garbage. For sure I’m a corporate sellout, but I have a shitload of time to spend with my kids and my wife instead of fucking around with other services or driving around town and I’m not sorry about it 🤷
Edit: and with prime I got ad free movies, in home delivery, faster shipping, audible, and who knows what else besides. I won’t shop at Walmart so I’m probably a hypocrite, but I’m a hypocrite who is happy with the service for the money.
“I am unwilling to do even the least of changes to my lifestyle to improve life on earth” is not the flex you think it is. It’s honestly sad.
I’m not flexing. It’s a fact. Everybody makes choices and I am making mine. Do you own a car? And if you do, do you put gas in it, earth-raping heathen? Do you water your lawn? Have a gas lawnmower? How about solar panels? You ever take a bath instead of a gallon shower? Buy electronics sourced from countries with weak labor laws? How about sleeping with a fan on at night or participate in wish recycling without consulting your local center?
I’m sure if we dig enough you’re shitty in some way too, yo. Maybe don’t be a supercilious dirt hat.
Bezos is also using his ownership of the Washington Post to silence the journalists there. So that’s fun.
https://www.cnbc.com/2024/10/25/jeff-bezos-killed-washington-post-endorsement-of-kamala-harris-.html
It’s not fun and it’s not surprising. Billionaires are generally cancerous and they own a lot of shit. If you can avoid them all, more power to you. I guess it’ll be my fault if trump gets elected.
There’s easy choices, hard choices and impossible choices. I don’t own a car, because I live in a place with good public transit and safe bike infra, so I wouldn’t stick it to someone who owns a car because they need it. I don’t keep a lawn, that’s stupid. Can’t remember last time I took a bath at home, no. It’s literally impossible to know the origin of most electronics you buy, but I rarely buy them and usually buy second hand. My electricity provider produces only renewable. I try to make better small choices along the way. I’m in no way perfect.
These are things that fit my lifestyle. Some are things you probably can’t do, and that’s fine. But not buying from the worst online shop in the world is one of the lowest hanging fruits. But sure, continue lying to yourself that personal change isn’t necessary. We’re not in a hurry.
It sounds like you don’t have to make ANY choices which must be pretty nice: it certainly makes it easy for you to judge other people!
I will absolutely take the easy road on getting non-food items we need twice a month to spend time with my kids and my wife. I would rather amazon than Alibaba, and I would rather do either than give up an hour of my time to shop something dumb like super glue with two kids under four.
I am also doing the best I can, and I’m sure you mean well, but you sure sound like an officious dickbag.
You’re trying to make it sound like the only options are buying super glue from amazon, or never see your kids. You are trying to paint a dramatic picture of reality that isn’t true just to justify your lazy lifestyle. I never said I didn’t have to make choices, on the contrary. Every day I have to make choices.
Very user-hostile, but very unsurprising.
Kindle hardware can be very nice, but almost every software decision is designed to keep users within their walled garden.
No epub support, no third party app support, no ability to load non-store audio, and now this. What a waste. These things could be so much more useful than they are.
Calibre has always been a small price to pay, but if sideloading goes away, I’ll certainly never “upgrade” again, and I’ll trash my 11th gen Paperwhite if they somehow make it stop working. Usable e-ink ereaders are even doable as DIY projects now, and Kobo will probably stay less closed-off than Amazon for a good while.
That said, reading the comments and the article it seems like as long as your OS (or some app) supports MTP, everything should still work more or less as it has, which is to say kind of annoying and with Amazon pulling little microaggressions like deleting your cover thumbnails, but overall sideloading should still function.
I love love love the DIY electronics scene but for a device that’s meant to be held…I dunno. Ergonomics are usually an afterthought if considered at all. I can’t imagine a DIY e-reader being comfortable to use
Note: NOT shilling for Amazon here, I will never buy another Kindle
As much as the idea is cool, that display is also horrendous for reading. I could absolutely see it as “good enough” for a lot of projects, but not an ereader. 400x300 isn’t enough.
I saw that, too. I haven’t had a lot of headaches with MTP using my Android devices, but I’m always surprised at how there always seems to be a plan to make my devices worse than they already are.
I bought 2 Kindle 4 and 2 Kindle keyboard on Ebay for $40 a couple years ago and couldn’t be happier.
Abolish patent law.
Maybe replace it with some very strict non-extensible protection, based on time since patent registration or profit made with it, maybe something else, whichever happens earlier.
Either that or get used to oligopoly in every area of economics affected by electronics and computers and even all scientific advancement.
That this takes time to happen, doesn’t change the fact.
No argument here. It is insane to me that if I want content that isn’t locked into a particular ecosystem, I have to seek out public domain material or pick from the small subset of books that is sold DRM-free books in an open format. For anything else, money can’t buy flexibility. For most books, the only options for digital are accepting the DRM, waiting until copyright expires (good luck with that one), or privateering with out a letter of marque.
Isn’t that pretty much how parents work already? They’re extensible, sure, but only up to 20 years total. Not only that but you’re forced to document it too.
Maybe 20 years is too long.
Certainly it could be, I would like to see some proper study done into it, but it’s probably borderline impossible.
Conversely patents are somewhat unobtainable by the average Joe, I think I saw it costing somewhere in the region of 25-50k to patent something by the time you factor in the cost of a decent patent lawyer.
Maybe a 10-15 year patent period with lower barrier to entry would be a good thing.
Specifically:
When you plug them into USB into your PC or MAC, they no longer appear as external drives.
For anyone else who’s confused at the title
Critically, while they wont appear as drives, they will appear as MTP devices (the same way Android phones do) and will still allow you to transfer files. The communication protocol is different, but “New Kindle e-readers no longer appear on computers” isn’t true unless your OS of choice doesn’t support MTP.
Ok, but can you still transfer your own books through MTP?
Yes, including EPUB files
It must have been a slow day at the news office. Literally nothing special to write about, so this article was slapped together.
Ya I thought it was talking about advertising them or something
We could only hope.
Glad I got a Kobo then.
Yep. Kobo is much better nowadays.
I’ve owned two Kindle devices over the years, and the ability to directly load content, without involving a third-party service, was a big part of what made them usable for me. If that feature is gone, these devices will no longer be viable for my needs.
And the enshittification continues…
I’m in the same position as you. From what I gather you can still transfer files, I’m still buying a kobo when my voyage bites the dust.
As noted elsewhere in the thread, they do support MTP transport, so it’s definitely not as user-hostile as it first sounded. Things like Calibre will still work. However, the fact that Amazon also removed the ability to download ebooks in the browser for offline transfer suggests where things are heading. IIRC kobos have some anti features of their own, but I don’t recall the details. I wonder if something like the Daylight DC-1 could be even better. It’s not just a nice reader, but a proper computer. At least, if it actually exists.
Comments on the article say that it’s not true, and new Kindles work exactly the way old ones do.
Seems like they don’t work exactly the same as they used to, as they now use MTP instead of USB mass storage, but while annoying, it’s generally a pretty trivial fix and your OS may already use MTP devices with no trouble. It seems there may be some other knock-on effects with fonts not sideloading right and needing a Calibre plugin to make pagination work how it used to.
So yeah, it’s getting worse, but Amazon hasn’t figured out how to bring the hammer down yet.
Kobo, folks. I’ve been there through three generations of devices. No regrets. Fairly hackable, sideload friendly, competitively priced.
Which model?
Anyone have thoughts between Kobo and Boox or ReMarkable?
I’m using a Boox Leaf 2 myself, it’s basically just an android tablet with an eink screen. I can load pretty much any eBook format, and you can put regular android apps from play store (or any other app store) on it as well if you want. And they have a microSD card slot available from the outside to expand storage.
All the hacks and mods people do to their kobo are not needed, because it’s supported by default on my Leaf 2.
Well that does sound pretty cool, I might have to take a closer look when I’m ready for another purchase.
Yeah that sells well for me too. I like that flexibility
Sounds pretty good but also battery intensive. How is battery life in this device?
IMO battery life is absolutely excellent, I brought it with me on a 2 week holiday last year, read for 30-90min almost every night and didn’t need to charge it during the trip or worry about battery life.
Wow. Now I’m impressed. I was set on a Kobo Libra, maybe even the Color, but this sounds great.
I’ve looked into those other brands but not recently enough to provide any meaningful comparison. (though I have this feeling that “remarkable is overpriced” is something I’ve heard a lot, but I could be wrong)
I’ve personally owned the Kobo Glo, Glo HD, and Libra 2.
For most of their devices (I can’t speak for current models one way or the other) you can swap out key bits of the software and enhance functionality via various hacks/mods. A lot of that is documented here: https://www.mobileread.com/forums/forumdisplay.php?f=223
You can also open them up and replace a standard SD card to boost storage capacity. (Again, I know this to be true at least through the Libra 2, I do not know about more recent models.)
The thing I got the most use from in the past was being able to swap out the sdcard on my Glo and Glo HD, but some folks really swear by the other various mods. I don’t have any complaint with the default reader software on the Kobo, so haven’t messed with swapping that out.
I have not messed with the SD card on the Libra 2 for two reasons - apparently doing so will mess up the waterproofing, and also because I’ve found 32GB to be sufficient for my purposes.
I appreciate the input! I admit to a knee jerk wariness of ReMarkable due to their pervasive advertising on Facebook back when. Ada on there are like a modern equivalent of As Seen On Tv
Kobo seems to consistently get positive comments in forums oth
Android is a massive value add. I can’t tolerate it for my actual phone, but it’s just an absolutely huge step up from the other ereader OSes.
I went with a Boox device recently and like it. Since it is just android you can load up all sorts of apps. I use it for various things other than reading books, for example with the Paprika app in the kitchen as a recipe display.
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I’m considering a Clara BW, just waiting to see if it’ll go on sale for Black Friday.
Kobo can connect to libraries via apps like Libby (or others), right?
Yes, w/ Overdrive (same org as Libby).
Excellent!
Overdrive is the one I usually hear about, but in googling Libby it seems they are related.
https://help.libbyapp.com/en-us/6251.htm
https://help.kobo.com/hc/en-us/articles/4477058367895-About-the-Libby-app
Sounds like time for some 3rd party bios flash…
What are people’s go-to for eBook buying stores? Preferably DRM free.
I try to not buy Kindle books but I usually end up back there as it’s either much cheaper (not just slightly) or can only be found there.
I usually just borrow e-books from the library, download as epub and strip the DRM from the file so I can read it, and return the eBook to the library right away for the next person to borrow it.
I’m too lazy, I just borrow from the library and use them on the device. Stripping the DRM takes some level of effort, and I don’t intend to keep the books anyway, so I just let the DRM do its thing and turn off the wifi so they don’t disappear until I’m done w/ them.
Works fine on my SO’s Kindle, and I’m considering getting a Kobo and hope it’ll work there.
I wouldn’t like the surveillance this would indirectly cause. My guess would be that a library app would need an internet connection… And I would not trust my reader to ever be online.
It needs an internet connection for the initial download and DRM check, but then you can go offline. So it doesn’t need a constant internet connection, only when you want to load new books onto it. I’ll have books on hold and checked out between times I access the internet to load books on (so I’ll load a few, go offline, once I’m done go online and fetch the books I’ve checked out in the meantime).
I have no issue w/ my eReader being online occasionally to fetch updates or get new books.
Well yeah, my issue is needing internet connection at all - as well as having my reading in the library app itself being spied on, even if my reader did have an OS I trust to be online.
And for me, I honestly don’t care too much if Libby knows what I read. If I did care, I’d just get DRM-free books, either legally or not, and bypass the library entirely.
I do just that. You do you. Even though the topics aren’t dangerous, I am still uncomfortable having them recorded tied to my passport.
I have 5th gen PW and I never turned off Airplane mode. It’s a damn good device: great backlight, simple UI, ridiculously good battery life…etc
But if this no usb nonsense continues, I’m never going to buy Kindle again.
Good thing is that Kindle lasts for decade. My previous Kindle served me well for 10 years.
edit: Nevermind, found this reddit post that it’s just showing up as an MTP device and that Calibre works just fine.
Time to switch to lobo (supposed to be Kobo) when my current oasis dies
I know it’s a typo, but the image of Lobo, DC’s heavy metal space biker, reading books to someone while they lie in bed is hilarious.
Well now I have to leave the typo hahaha
any time you buy DRM’d content you’re subject to revocation of rights to use it. So buying such content along with purchase of devices geared specifically for DRM-only content is doomed from the beginning.
Onyx Boox, Kobo, PocketBook. Did i miss a custom content friendly company?
Btw, PocketBook is my first pick in privacy and battery runtime.
Article says you cannot side load books on Apple Books. That is incorrect. You just send an epub to books via the share menu on Mac or iOS and it loads it. Also syncs it via iCloud if you want it to.
Perhaps the author meant you cannot download purchased books off of Apple Books.
Article is wrong about many things, seems poorly researched or the topic not fully understood by the author
