If you want to engage those bad faith accounts, don’t respond to the Gaza thing; that’s a trap. Instead, ask about other issues like climate issues, housing issues, food insecurity problems, etc. ask them what their third party candidate has planned for that and ask for evidence of these plans. They’ll move goalposts and attempt to get back on Gaza. Keep them coming back to those other issues that affect Americans daily. Many of those accounts are here to derail conversation. Derail them in turn and force the conversation back on track.
Or do what I do and downvote then block, then post the occasional reminder that most of those accounts are bad faith at best.
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Your pro genocide stance has been noted.
Your pro genocide stance has been noted.
And they’ve been banned because they keep saying the same stuff, being banned everywhere, then making new accounts
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You said you support the slaughter of innocent people. I’m not worried about spies, this is a public forum.
One have to admire the delicate propaganda that makes people believe in a total inversion of value lmao
Americans dems are doing the genocide, scum. You vote for them, you fucking yank. Your country is doing the genocide. Fuck you.
I know. I mean I’m not a huge fan of Harris’ Gaza stance. Honestly I’m not sure why it’s political at all to call what Israel is doing wrong. But come on, Trump will be 100 times worse. And that’s just on the Israel/Gaza thing. I’m not sure how you can look at these two and decide that Harris is wrong enough about the Gaza thing that you come to the conclusion that either a third party or Trump vote is warranted. Which makes me believe is not genuine and likely foreign agent spreading chaos and misinformation.
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I’m not russian, idiot. Accusing peace activits of being a foreign agent always have been part of jingoist propaganda. Remember when everybody being against vietnam war was a moscow spy?
I’m just a regular dude who, like the rest of the world, is looking at america with contempt. At you too
“Peace activist…?”
Weren’t you wishing death on others, like, two posts ago? And you’re laughing at others for inverted values.
Banned account said what?
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It’s because there is a large, internally-polled segment of the Pennsylvania electorate who are Jewish and sympathetic to Israel.
Harris can’t afford to not court them.
I have no doubt she vehemently dislikes Bibi and would wish to cut aid.
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Not only that, but AIPAC is a serious force that has demonstrated their willingness to aggressively smear every candidate who speaks out against Israel; they’ve already done this for a number of races.
Harris is basically trapped here. The best thing she can do is stay vague until after the election, when she might actually have the power to do something about it. No one on Palestine’s side has anything to gain from her losing votes over it.
Yeah this is basically my thoughts as well. Stuck between Iraq and a hard place (I had to do the Hot Shots joke here… too fitting).
But seriously, AIPAC has way too much power in American politics. And your comment about Palestine is spot on. She is walking a very thin line, but this is the nature of politics and nuance. That orange fucker has no clue about any of this.
This is the correct reason and the reason why the genocide will continue no matter who is elected.
Aipac has bought enough of american politicians that it has rendered votes worthless.
People should vote on matters other than this for with any outcome US sponsored genocide is inevitable.
It’s because there is a large, internally-polled segment of the Pennsylvania electorate who are Jewish and sympathetic to Israel.
Harris can’t afford to not court them.
I have no doubt she vehemently dislikes Bibi and would wish to cut aid.
I hope you are right. But, without evidence (if there is any, please share it), this might be wishful thinking. You might just be a more moral person than Harris. I might be being extremely unfair, but it doesn’t seem impossible for an elected official to be willing to sacrifice the lives of innocent people in a country without American voters to gain power.
I think there have been some “leaked” info to reputable journalists how both Biden and Harris pretty much despise Bibi at this point. I think if you look at it in the aggregate in how they pushed for the ceasefire (as opposed to Trump speaking with Bibi to actively undermine it), in her comments after meeting with Bibi shortly after becoming the presumed nominee following Biden stepping down — there is a clear tonal change from, say, 6-months-ago even. So yeah, I think her hands are pretty well tied.
Either way, the reality any sane person can understand is that there are much better odds we see movement from Harris than we do from Trump.
And everyone conveniently forgets that Biden did try to stop aid to Israel earlier this year. Congress blocked it. Is he trying hard enough? No probably not (I don’t claim to be an expert in middle east geopolitics, it is possible that the situation is an even more thoroughly fucked Gordian knot than it appears), but he did try. And the alternative this November thinks what he is trying is “too tough” on Bibi.
Either way, the reality any sane person can understand is that there are much better odds we see movement from Harris than we do from Trump.
I completely agree with that. I admit to being impatient for change now, because innocent people are dying now. It is sad that elections (and electorates) get in the way of such important moral principles.
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Hey look, someone finally posted an article about this so the mods don’t remove it!
Here’s the link to the actual speech from Sanders: https://youtu.be/Vf5MThSniiY
I came to the Politics community 9 hours after it was posted to find discussion. Nothing.
Personally I feel an exception should be made when the news is literally just a video, why wait for a journalist to regurgitate it in written form?
Anyway
Love you Bernie, but get bent.
Just say you do not care Bernie. We all know it. https://www.aljazeera.com/news/2023/10/30/bernie-sanderss-failure-to-back-gaza-ceasefire-disappoints-us-supporters
Protest voting doesn’t work when the candidate you are protesting is the least worst option. Democrats that will not vote out of principle have been conned as badly as MAGA republicans. End of story.
I think you might be on to something. Maybe the system is set up to limit the power of protest voting? I mean, it does deliver two right-of-centre parties to power, over and over again.
Where the wheels are coming off is that one of them - and some people say both - are moving further rightwards, and this is destabilising society in America.
Are you American?
I hope he is not. At least he wont rot in hell.
Some people say… Dems are generally shit but they have definitely moved left over the last decade. A lot of new people have run and while it isn’t a sure thing by any stretch, people have been able to and have the chance to continue to move the party and also just straight up infiltrate it to push it left. Whereas the repubs have been in full sprint to the right.
Maybe the system is set up to limit the power of protest voting?
Not everything is some conspiracy to keep you down. The people who wrote the constitution just weren’t perfect and had to make political compromises, which resulted in an imperfect system.
Also, the game theory that gives us insight into voting systems, telling us the current system leads to a 2 party system, did not exist when the US constitution was written.
The dynamic was understood, it just wasn’t formalized in game theory terms. Alternative voting systems weren’t in use though, and probably wouldn’t even have been practical without automation.
Maybe the system is set up to limit the power of protest voting?
It absolutely is set up that way. This may or may not have been the intent of our election system, but it is the outcome.
I think there may be some conflict in the interpretation of “set up”. When you say it was “absolutely” set up that way, keep in mind that many if not most would interpret “set up” to definitively include intent.
Washington himself warned of the dangers of a 2 party system…
He warned about parties themselves.
Fair distinction.
Pretend you’re a politician. You have two groups of people that want opposite things. One of them is reliable, donates and volunteers to help your campaign. The other is feckless and seems to always find an excuse to oppose you. Which would you try to please?
What exact issue do you disagree with from the feckless ones? What made it so hard?
You’re not doing a very good job of pretending to be a politician if that’s your answer.
so you can’t point a single instance. got it. sounds like your hypothetical politician was an asshole not worthy of the job.
Young people don’t get involved in the system and don’t vote, nothing special about the US on that level, so it’s not surprising their priorities aren’t the priorities of the political options.
Not voting for a candidate is not the only, nor the most effective way to push a party to change positions on an issue you care about.
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Unfortunately Gaza is a non issue. The situation would only be handled worse under the other candidate. Along with just about every other conceivable thing.
Sorry Bernie but after Hillary ousted you and then Biden was shoehorned through the primary in 2020 I voted for Gloria LA riva and now I’ve written in Claudia de la Cruz / Karina Garcia. I think voting left of center or even a vote for that hack Jill Stein actually would show the DNC they are losing votes based on their continued shift to the right and I am even considering leaving the party on my registration over their antidemocratic primaries and their decisions to fund the campaigns of right wing extremists under the misguided notion that they’re easier to beat.
Dont get me wrong, I hope Harris/Walz wins but I do not support them because their positions continue to reinforce the status quo and prop up a system that supports fascism today, right now, at home and abroad.
Otherwise im voting downballot blue except where there is a further left independent which in my area is viable for another statewide position. Thats the most practical support the " at least I’m not the other guy" strategy will get from me, and they didnt even earn it
Wish the push was to tell the Democratic party not to engage with genocide not to tell us we have to suck it up to vote for genocide anyway.
Put it a different way: if both candidates are willing to turn a blind eye to genocide, who do you think you’d have a better chance lobbying to change their stance? One support a cease fire and a two state solution. The other doesn’t think a two start solution could work, and that Israel needs to do whatever they need to do to get the war over with.
I’m clear both are for the extermination of Palestinians and will support Israel in all their wars. I think we’re kidding ourselves acting like the difference between the two on those issues is substantial at all. They both are lobbied to so much by Israel’s pac
Based on this i’d think its harder to lobby the Dems but I really think neither party is movable on their positions in respect to Israel.
Totally agree that Kamala will be better on everything else though. Just find it fucked that we’re told to suck it up on the pro genocide stances.
He’s said this too… but of course you don’t actually care about that fact.
Ok… Just saying it’s sad. Do you not think it’s sad?
Edit: actually no what the fuck is this reply? What fact don’t I care about? That Bernie agrees that this is fucked. What did I say that you take issue with?
Jesus Christ. I’m so tired of you genocide minimizers
The reply is you will continue to say not to vote for even the best options for what you claim you want. It’s stupid.
OK, in case you can’t understand, I’ll expand further. Your comment was:
Wish the push was to tell the Democratic party not to engage with genocide not to tell us we have to suck it up to vote for genocide anyway.
He has pushed to tell the Democratic party to not engage with genocide. He should be someone you support. Instead, you spend every opportunity undermining anyone who could give your movement legitimacy. However, because he is practical and says we should also support Harris, because it’s the best move that we can make, he’s wrong and you’ll say things like implying he isn’t against the genocide. It’s pretty stupid.
Take a deep breath
I don’t know what you think my positions are but you’re wrong. I am a socialist. I’m not in a swing state so I did vote third party but I would never dream of telling someone in a swing state of doing the same I would tell them they have to vote for Kamala.
I’m not talking shit about Bernie Sanders, I know he has made attempts to be on the right side of this issue but because he does not have support from his party he’s been unable to. I’m simply lamenting the fact that our political system is so un-nuanced and so shitty that we have to pick between two genocide enablers for the highest office in the land. And that even the better party is pro-genocide. That’s all.
I wish we lived in a political system that gave us enough power as the people to just have choices we actually want. Not this lesser of two evils bullshit that we constantly do.
You good?
I’m good. Your first comment should have just been worded better I guess. You said you wish the (Bernie’s) push was against genocide, which implies it wasn’t. He has though. It’s a discredit to him to imply he hasn’t, and many people on here will say he’s bad just because he also supports Harris, which means he isn’t against the genocide.
This opinion you’ve stated now seems fine, but the original comment seemed to say something else.
the antisemites have to be clearly and succinctly told this, you see
Gunna vote twice, once for each candidate, so I double my chances of ensuring genocide. It’s what america was founded on, it’s what our forefathers would have wanted.
How very Russian of you considering that’s exactly how their last election went.
No idea what you’re talking about, I don’t own a single tracksuit and I don’t even like vodka.
Anybody voting against Harris over Gaza is a moron. Trump may be even more pro Israel…
We know that Harris will let the zionists do whatever they want, whenever they want, however they want, no matter what it costs the US. Your saying theres much difference between that and whatever Trump plans is dumb. Is Trump going to double kill people and double steal their land?
Anybody voting against Harris over Gaza is a moron
I think war crimes surrogates are worse than morons.
You really think there’s a complete carte blanche from either the current administration or will likely be under Harris? Don’t get me wrong. Israel has gone way overboard, but me assure you it could be a lot worse.
Infact, the actions of Trump during his administration included moving the US embassy in an extremely controversial move and even the war criminal Netanyahu meets Trump personally - when he is not even President.
Are you saying that taking action like not voting for Harris, which will help enable a Trump victory, is the correct course of action to reduce Palestinian and Lebanese suffering? Your approach doesn’t make any sense if your goal is to reduce suffering.
I was a Bernie-or-Bust-er in 2016 because I was confident Hilary was going to win with or without my vote. I deeply regret taking that stance and feel like I let down every woman who’s lost rights to their bodily autonomy, every family who was separated at the border, everybody whose life was lost or ruined due to the Trump administration’s incompetent response to the COVID-19 outbreak, and everybody else who has been harmed by the Trump administration.
Don’t be like me. It sucks having to vote for the lesser of two evils but that’s how our system works and not voting or voting third-party isn’t going to change that but it does run the risk of things getting a lot worse.
Can I ask what state you were voting from in 2016?
TX at the time. Generally regarded as solidly red. However, looking at the numbers in '16 and '20, I wouldn’t be surprised if everybody in the state who had either voted third-party or not at all because of the belief that their vote wouldn’t make a difference would have indeed been enough to potentially flip the state.
I’m hoping this will be the year we see Texas flip blue. That would be beautiful.
I’m not sure why people haven’t been saying this more.
We have been, everywhere we can.
I have been. It tends to get downvoted by both extremes on Lemmy.
On my instance, the UI doesn’t even give a downvote option. There’s probably a way around that, though, not that I am interested.
Getting rid of downvotes is, I think, a good thing.
Getting rid of downvotes is, I think, a good thing
says the person who gets downvoted for all the asinine shit they say
I’ve been foolishly arguing with people for months on this topic.
It’s a fundamentally uncomfortable position. The people of Gaza matter, and we can be pretty sure that Harris will continue current Biden Admin policies on it. You can’t argue for the hundred other policies at stake without knowingly allowing genocide to happen with US approval.
But here’s the thing: there are two very prominent Jewish people who don’t believe for a second that both sides are the same. One of them is Bernie Sanders. The other is Benjamin Netanyahu.
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It’s a fundamentally uncomfortable position. The people of Gaza matter
Thank you for saying this.
If I were American, I would surely vote for Harris. But I would want to have been able to do more to keep people safe from state terrorism.
America voting for the lesser evil since 1792.
It’s not the time to stop now. But I better see all of you on the streets with signs on November 6th.
For real.
Today, massive supporter for Harris.
Post-election, I shall go back to being a massive critic.
Shitty situation all around. Once heard politics are like public transportation. Won’t give me a door-to-door ride to the destination I’m aiming for, so I’ll take it to get as close as possible.
