anybody on the left withholding their vote at this point fundamentally disbelieves in a system with exactly two discrete options, so this type of post doesn’t persuade anybody
fundamentally disbelieves in a system with exactly two discrete options
except the polls are exactly about two discrete options. “not believing” in it is like not believing in gravity. it doesn’t make you philosopher, it makes you dumb moron.
which is what people said before biden was replaced
Anyone who doesn’t “believe” that we have the system we have is beyond reaching
Yeah I don’t “believe” our system best serves the common good. But I sure as hell will vote for Kamala because it’s very clear that is my best course of action to serve the common good. Voting for a third party won’t lead to a system where more parties have a voice, it will help Trump get into power, where only a single party has a voice, and any other voice will be silenced
Voting for a third party won’t lead to a system where more parties have a voice…
Yes it will. If a 3rd party gets 5% of the national vote they qualify for federal election funding which would make them more viable next time around.
which is what people said before biden was replaced
Tbf, the Democratic party nomination process is not a 2-party system. They did say that back then, and they were wrong to do so - hoping that people wouldn’t notice that difference.
But now we are talking about the real deal, the thing that they were trying to falsely tie an equivalence to, the actual vote for the actual presidency. Democracy in the USA may not last the decade regardless, but voting one way is for ditching it in favor of Project 2025 and among other things, ironically enough even moar-er support for genocide, while the other is a vote for hopefully a little better than the current status quo.
Both offer short term pain and long term destruction… but not equally so.
they’re not suggesting a third party candidate can win
they’re suggesting that the democratic platform can shift
How though? And more importantly, why? Like, what “leeway” does Kamala have to say anything different than she already has, which she could shift to?
Maybe after she wins yes, but at this point the choices are Trump vs. not-Trump, so I don’t see how a vote for a third-party would help in this case. At one point, with Bernie Sanders vs. Hillary Clinton there were different thoughts about how a vote for Bernie would cause Hillary to shift more towards the left - but most of that again gets back to the nomination process, not the final show-down between the two parties, and after that was a disastrous example of how voting for the 3rd-party candidate didn’t help the democratic party shift, except in the sense that it handed literally hundreds and hundreds of judicial nominees to the Republican party that, among other things, ended the protections of Roe v. Wade.
Two months ago the situation with Biden was VERY DIFFERENT than the situation now faced, with Kamala. Back then we could - and yay, did! - shift and pivot to adjust to the harsh realities that he was not capable of running again. We very likely would have lost if he had. But that was then, and this is now.
Anyway I think that I’m preaching to the converted here, so maybe I just misunderstood something that you said. Tbh, I don’t agree with your take on the OP - I think it really does show voting not for a 3rd party but voting for the other side b/c “bOtH sIdEs ArE tHe SaMe” (the title of the post), specifically wrt genocide. I think that b/c there are only 2 tracks shown… Also, the genocide being mentioned implicitly in the graphic (“but worse…”) shows how its focus is on short-term effects immediately after the election, not long-term ones about telling the Democratic party how the American populace would very much enjoy it if it would become more liberal if they would please and thank you very much.
Like, what “leeway” does Kamala have to say anything different than she already has, which she could shift to?
a significant enough chunk of her voter base credibly withholding a vote based on a desired policy change would force a shift toward that desired policy change
i’d say biden’s platform in 2020 was significantly more left-wing than clinton’s in 2016
But that was then, and this is now.
this is the same “it’s too late” or “it’s too unprecedented” or whatever you want to pick that was exactly the justification for biden being kept in as long as he was
I think it really does show voting not for a 3rd party but voting for the other side b/c “bOtH sIdEs ArE tHe SaMe” (the title of the post), specifically wrt genocide.
people the post targets aren’t voting red. they’re just not voting at all, or voting third party. it’s an argument to a position held by an insignificant fraction of the left-anti-harris crowd.
it doesn’t address the core issue they have. they’d say that continuing to vote for the least-bad party is the reason both parties are bad, and that at a certain point you have to attempt to force a more radical change.
Months ago was the time to make changes. Yeah, that’s what they said then too, except it was wrong then, as proven by the fact that the changes did happen.
Even if the words sound similar, now really is different than then. Voting has already begun - the fight to pick candidacies is long over and done. It is now long past time to pick a side.
If you want to vote 3rd party then go ahead - nobody is stopping you. Aside from all the news about some 3rd-party candidates receiving money from and having demonstrated ties to Russia (look it up if you haven’t heard), the Democrats do not seem to be taking such rhetoric as a credible “threat” though, for whatever reason. Probably bc they really are the best hope for the Palestinian people, as the latter recently confirmed by putting out a statement saying why they finally chose to endorse Kamala Harris’s campaign. You can ofc accuse the Dems of being very naive and disconnected from their voting base - that would be extremely difficult to argue against - and yet facts are facts.
See e.g. this article: https://lemmy.blahaj.zone/post/17919598.
You misread, try it again.
Sorry what do you think they meant then?
Believing in something and believing something exists or is a certain state are two very different things.
You can believe that this despotic duopoly exists in such a way that there are only two outcomes, without believing such a system will ever function.
Man it’s getting downright gross how liberals are just so blasé about their acceptance of Palestinians being murdered.
I see .ml found this post. There are almost as many dumb comments as there are downvotes.
Does reporting them work?
As far as I know, being dumb isn’t against the community’s rules, so no. That would just be bothering the mods for no reason.
I read something along the lines of “Report, do not engage” but maybe it’s more for obvious shills?
Thanks for the heads up though!
“Report, do not engage” is for trolls. These people are true believers, they just believe in something deeply immoral and senseless, because they think they won’t suffer the consequences of fascism.
Not engaging is still valid for idiots, not just trolls.
Thanks for clearing that out, and yes, as I went to school and also grew up alongside the soviet fucking union I’m quite aware that these poor souls are quite delusional.
It’s quite interesting for me how they can hold those beliefs. They’re so engaged too.
Almost a shame they are not a bit more tame because now it’s hard or even impossible to engage in a constructive discussion with them.
They be like “but if the top people are being ran over, it’ll radicalize them into communist ideology, and no way could a surveillance state, that is being promised by Trump and co. to to be even more extensive than the current one, combined with the promise of using the military against protestors, ever hinder the ability of a nation-wide revolution”.
I’m so glad that deteriorating material conditions radicalize people into left-wing ideologies, here I was worried that educating people was what radicalized them into left-wing ideologies. That’s why whenever I go home to Appalachia for a visit everyone there is wearing red. Th-that is the reason they’re so politically fond of red, r-right…?
How are people supposed to react to a meme arguing that genocide is inevitable?
Not rejecting reality to throw a fit and ensure as many people are killed as possible instead would be a good start.
If you endorse a genocide because you’re scared it would otherwise happen to you, you’re still a Nazi. The Jews in the Nazi party in the 1940s were not victims, they were just Nazis.
If you endorse a genocide because you’re scared it would otherwise happen to you, you’re still a Nazi. The Jews in the Nazi party in the 1940s were not victims, they were just Nazis.
Don’t worry - the Terminally Online Leftists will change their tune from “It won’t change the election” to “If Palestine gets genocided by Israel, it’s only fair minorities in the US are genocided too”.
Removed by mod
That last bit isn’t really a fair characterization. We don’t have to invent things people will say. There are already enough voices in this dialog.
I get that this is not the hill to die on in this meme, but the tracks should really be reversed.
This implies “doing nothing” will only sacrifice Palestine, while “pulling the lever” (i.e. voting) will sacrifice Palestine+all other at risk groups.
Otherwise, this really is a classic trolly dilemma. We can’t stop the train and someone is going to get killed.
This meme also implies that the current US strategy is not to fund Ukraine just enough to take Russia to Hell with it. It also implies the Democrats don’t rely on anti-LGBTQ votes because one single comment made by Waltz. This meme also implies Democrat are pushing laws to combat police brutality (at least fix this at local or state levels in cities where they hold the majority).
The Democrats here now have worse arguments than the tankies.
Kamala literally used to fight for sexual assault victims and such
Walz used to fight for his school kids
Trump bragged on Howard Stern about perving on young girls and is a convicted rapist
You do realize there is both a house and Senate right, and unless they have control of both, they can’t necessarily just push laws. That’s what politics is
And in the past few years, the Republicans have only been interested in sabotage it seems (if Trump loses this election, there is a better chance they will be more willing to work when Democrats)
They’re not relying on this shit. The most commonly cited reason even by Republicans voting for Harris is that Trump is a dictator that wants to ruin the country
Yeah, but that would require an understanding of the trolley problem as a philosophical dilemma, and how are you gonna use that to yell at people you hate?
Hasn’t everyone watched the Good Place?
Right, and one of the main, basic ways in which one can consider the trolley problem is that, regardless of the difference in outcomes, pulling the lever makes you morally responsible for what happens.
That’s hotly debated by moral philosophers and ethicists.
Yes that’s my point exactly, people love to dogpile on anyone who doesn’t jump at the easy consequentialist solution, but there are other valid interpretations
Also not pulling the lever makes you morally responsible if you “stand by and do nothing”
That’s another way of looking at it
That’s literally the point
Decisions have consequences, doing nothing is a decision.
“doing nothing is a decision” is a legitimate position you can argue for, but it is not some kind of settled moral fact that you can just assert without any justification.
It’s less a moral fact and more a fact of life. If you don’t pay bills you get late fees then stop getting the service. If you don’t study you don’t do as well as studying a little or a lot. If you don’t make a move on the girl you like someone else will and/or she’ll move on. If you don’t stop facism…
“The only thing necessary for the triumph of evil is for good men to do nothing.”
In politics the don’t vote and vote third party are essentially the same of doing nothing until ftfp is fixed.
Unless the lever is in another country and you’re just paying the guy pulling the lever, then “there’s nothing I can do”.
We can’t stop the train and someone is going to get killed.
We really fucking can, it just requires more people to care enough to be willing to do more than the bare fucking minimum of participating in this theatre those profiting from war have set out for us, and look outside of the system you have indoctrinated to believe isn’t only the default, but the best (and if this doesn’t demonstrate that fact to you, I honestly think you’re beyond help).
I fully believe the system we live in is broken, and is nowhere near “the best”. But the system does have many people who are indoctrinated, and many who benefit from it too greatly to make me believe we have sufficient time to derail it before some of the death implied in this meme comes.
But if you have a plan more tangible then telling people “wake up sheeple!”, then I’m ready to hear it. And if it’s actually convincing, then I’m ready to help.
But randomly telling people they have been indoctrinated, declaring it to be self evident, and then accusing them of being beyond help if they don’t see it, is nothing more than pointless moral masturbation. Maybe it makes you feel better, but it’s not helping nor convincing anyone.
Let me know what your plan is when you have it figured out. In the mean time, I’m going to go back to helping who I can.
I legit was thinking of the trolley scenario what I was doing laundry earlier today. Great minds think alike
I just made the dishes and here we are!
Thank you for confirming my bias that both sides are indeed the same - I will now proceed accordingly. 😜
/s btw, and damn I wish this was funny. As it is, it feels all too real…😔
Remember to never question why such an orphan crushing trolley exists!
Just pull the lever and vote blue!
Remember to never question why such an orphan crushing trolley exists!
This is really the crux of every one of these arguments about Gaza-related voting decisions though.
The people saying vote Harris please because (see OP) are saying that because they consider the trolley as an unstoppable force. There is no spectrum of feasible action that involves stopping the trolley before it takes one of those two paths. There may be feasible action that involves getting rid of the trolley later, but not now.
The people saying ZOMG you are voting for genocide if you vote for Harris seem to be focused on the trolley and can’t believe we’re all worrying about lesser evils when the orphan crushing trolley is right fucking there.
I am not a member of this second group, but it seems to me that they think getting rid of the trolley before it takes one of those paths is possible. Or, they think destroying the trolley later necessarily involves sacrificing ALL those groups (on both tracks above) now.
If only we could do more than one thing at once. Like pull the lever for blue because it is incredibly easy but also work on the task of getting rid of the trolley.
Do the easy thing first, leave the hard thing for tomorrow (never).
The hard thing gets even harder if we don’t do the easy thing.
It is questioned, the trolley is that first past the post system you hear people complain about.
But at the same time you don’t just let the trolley do the maximum amount of crushing before it can be shut down for good.
If you squeeze your eyes shut tight enough, the trolley will just disappear
No need to squeeze your eyes to watch Palestinians just disappear right?
And your solution is… to let the trolley roll over them anyway while feeling morally superior. Unless you have some plan of removing the trolley before January, you are choosing to let it crush them anyway. Choosing to not vote or pull the lever is also a choice that you will have to live with and one that requires moral justification.
Not everyone is capable of comprehending a nuanced and complex solution.
You offer no evidence of any capacity to question the contrivance of a despicable “problem.”
“I don’t have any moral responsibility because I believe the trolley shouldn’t exist in the first place.” Totally nuanced and not completely missing the point of the analogy at all. If only everyone knew we could just magically make the trolley disappear we could have skipped over the decades of philosophy written about the trolley problem because the solution is so easy!
I mean you said those words, no need to beat yourself up cause you have a little straw on your face.
That’s what it sounds like you are saying. If that’s not it, why didn’t you tell your solution?
What are you, 5? “I know you are but what am I?”
Democrats could nominate hitler reincarnated but you people would people would be defending them because republicans would have hitler reincarnated but who also hates animals. “Other guy worse” as a defense only means things continue getting worse because there will always be something worse. When can things actually get better for a change?
Immigrants used to be on top rail, but after four years, they have been placed on both rails, just like the Palestinians. There is no guarantee that the groups placed on the top rail will not be shifted to the bottom rail as well in four years.
Voting for Democrats is always advertised as the lesser of two evils, but it sure seems like the lesser evil is just trying to kill the same groups the greater evil. If they want people to vote for them, the Democrats should start working to save and prevent people from being tied to trolley tracks.
Or at least lie about it.
Plus we have Democrat-run cities implementing AI to spot homeless people, so add that to both rails as well
“Democrat-run cities”
Ya’ll just can’t help yourselves and I love it.
It’s almost as if they have a list of talking points and are told how to phrase simple things to make them further their agenda…
You mean like memes such as this one that deliberately leave out all sorts of context and misrepresent a political issue by oversimplifying it?
Didn’t Kamala already refuse to protect Trans rights? The Dems will put everyone on the tracks if it gets them votes/donations
You didn’t even make this meme correctly.
The point of this is that not pulling the lever leads to more dead but pulling the lever leads to less deaths but due to your action of pulling the lever.
Good job?
I didn’t make this meme at all.
You just hate Palestinians that much, you couldn’t help but share it… 🙄
Yeah, wanting fewer Palestinians to die means we hate Palestinians… /s
You folks aren’t even pretending to have a valid position here. If you’re rooting for Trump, you’re an existential threat to Palestinian existence.
No one is rooting for Trump. He represents a movement that is an existential threat to all of us.
But it’s insulting to assume automatic support from a voters where turn out isn’t high and it’s generally a challenge to get people out to vote.
Stop blaming people for their right to choose, especially over something as traumatic as a genocide.
Can you explain to me why the Democrats have been allowing this to happen?
The DNC had the time to parade Republicans at their convention but couldn’t even find time to listen to one, just one, voice regarding the ethnic cleansing thata going on, under their watch?
Please, I need some explanations here.
It’s so sad that that is the best available option.
People who don’t want to vote for Harris over Palestine, please watch this video: https://youtu.be/s7tWHJfhiyo
You’re basically doing exactly the right thing, and just not factoring in an obscure yet critical piece of context, which this video lays out. When that context is factored in, it totally flips the call on who to vote for, even though none of the values change.
This whole idea that its a bad system rests on people using it in a negative way instead of a positive one. It relies on people figuring out who’s the least likely to win and then moving votes appropriately.
You dont need to base your vote on who got what last election. You dont need to be so embarrassed the person you voted for lost, that you need to change your values and vote differently.
Everyone should be voting for someone not against someone. I think popular vote will help with this if it passes in enough states.
You would be correct if your system wasn’t so archaic.
I really hate you people for spewing your propaganda like that.
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The “worse” part implies the democrats didn’t give Israel everything it ever wanted which is in itself outright propaganda.
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I don’t know why Ukraine is portrayed like Palestine. Where are they getting ethnically cleansed that I missed? Where is this coming from? Show some respect to the worst humanitarian crisis of the 21st century for the love of god
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At how many atrocious policies do you say enough? At how many rollbacks from republicans that the democrats do nothing about do you say enough? At how many genocides do you say enough? If the democrats committed a second one? Trump would commit more you say. A third one? Trump would commit more. A fourth? A fifth? At what point do you draw the line?
https://medium.com/@ashwinjitsingh/the-trolly-problem-utilitarianism-vs-deontology-bd624a8e321e
"If one were to take a utilitarian standpoint, the means are justified by the end, which from a utilitarianist perspective, is the maximization of benefit. Hence, for a utilitarianist, whatever option guarantees the outcome of the maximum benefit is what is moral. Therefore, in the trolly case, a follower of classical utilitarianism would say that it is morally permissible to sacrifice 1 to save 5.
The deontological perspective in contrast, advocates for the means justifying the end. This, for a deontologist, the morality of the action should be based on whether the action itself is right or wrong under a series of rules, rather than being based on the consequence. In this light, a follower of deontologism would argue that it is morally impermissible to sacrifice one to save five because making the choice of having to kill someone is inherently wrong."
Nice wall of text, bro. So what do you suggest people should do?
I don’t know why Ukraine is portrayed like Palestine. Where are they getting ethnically cleansed that I missed?
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Allegations_of_genocide_of_Ukrainians_in_the_Russo-Ukrainian_War
On 17 March 2023, following an investigation of war crimes, crimes against humanity or genocide, the International Criminal Court (ICC) issued arrest warrants for Vladimir Putin, the President of Russia, and Maria Lvova-Belova, Russian Commissioner for Children’s Rights, for the unlawful deportation and transfer of children from Ukraine to Russia during the invasion.[20] According to the Russian Ministry of Defense, over 307,000 children were transferred to Russia from 24 February to 18 June 2022, alone.[21] In April 2023, the Council of Europe deemed the forced transfers of children as constituting an act of genocide in with an overwhelming majority of 87 in favour of the resolution to 1 against and 1 abstaining.[22]
The director of Amnesty International Ukraine, in an interview with Deutsche Welle on 4 April 2022, accused Russia of using targeted tactics to deplete the civilian population in besieged cities (deliberately cutting off access to food, water, electricity, and heat supply) and bringing them to a humanitarian catastrophe. There were noted cases of blocking humanitarian corridors, shelling of buses, killing of civilians who tried to leave the besieged cities.[31]
“Who’s to say that Ukraine will exist on the world map in two years at all?”
Dmitry Medvedev, 15 June 2022[96]
“The Ukraine that you and I had known, within the borders that used to be, no longer exists, and will never exist again”.
Maria Zakharova, 19 June 2022[97]
“But if you don’t want us to convince you, we’ll kill you. We’ll kill as many as necessary: one million, five million, or exterminate all of you”.
Pavel Gubarev, 11 October 2022[98]
“These are the non-humans that the Ukrainian Maidan spawned. Religion in Ukraine is replaced by them with false faith and sectarianism, and the junta itself is first replaced by them.”
Vladimir Putin, 12 December 2022[99]
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TIFI
Too many reports. Locking this down.
The way I see it is, if one side wins, the Left will not only have to worry about the Palestinians, but suddenly they’ll have to choose between protesting about all those other things AND it’ll be with a hostile government that will curtail civil rights and probably start committing abuses against US citizens.
If the other side wins, all those other issues become less of a danger and the Left can focus on keeping up the pressure on Democratic leadership to stop supporting Israel. It’s still not guaranteed, but it’s a much better chance than in the alternative world where out and out fascism takes over. Focus on what’s important, don’t needlessly add more problems on to the pile.
